| Poll |
| What is the best pie? |
| Funeral pie. |
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33% |
[ 5 ] |
| Get-well-soon pie. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Journeyman pie. |
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13% |
[ 2 ] |
| Retirement pie. |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| No-one's-missing-the-next-game-for-a-change surprise pie. |
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33% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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 Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 16:52 |
 
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So I want to apologise up front for talking about another coach's team without really knowing them or their business. But I'd seen some of their games, am a little sad for them, and I'm trying to be enlightened, so here goes.
(P.S. They're your teams, do whatever makes you happy 'em.)
That seems to be a typical, "Elves are fun, oh, wait, they're dying, eh, I'll start over" thing that happens in the box. So many lightly armoured teams only play up to 40 or so and then pack it in when they hit the POMB brigade.
I know the feeling. The game gets harder, and at the same time your team gets worse.
It's just, the last five teams played, as mentioned, they're full of crippled players, most of them only have 3-5 players over 30 games at emerging or better, so it's not just elves, everyone dies in the box. There's teams out there with just 1 star left, still chugging along, back down around 1400 TV after a hundred games or more. Saw some Chorfs the other day, one legend carrying a team of near-rookies, nothing in the bank, checked it out and the past players were all just dead (or at least -st).
That Pro Elf team had 8 stars, peaked around 2200 TV + 400k in the bank. That's brilliant, but it's also a sign of a very long stretch of luck that does not last for anyone. The game is designed to punish you for being up there, not just Spiralling Expenses rules but every little thing. The teams are supposed to fall apart and need rebuilt, and quickly at that, so that new teams can rise up and win tourneys and stuff.
Look at the WMDs, everyone loves Bill. Closing in on 3000 games, just 1870 TV today, 3 legends (all crippled) and a superstar, basically no one else, oldest at 133 games, most under 10(!), just 230k in the bank. One of the toughest teams going, great coach, even they don't live that long. In a week more of them will be gone.
Man, my box 'flings, safer down at 1500 TV (on a good day) and still trying to grow, death is what happens. 7 older players, mostly crippled. But you can't waste Apothecaries on on some nobody in turn 2 and then sad-quit when your best dies, you either save the Apo for the best or you learn to live in the eternal style game and enjoy the new challenges that replace them. Surely.
And what's with trying to out-bash heavy teams full of Guard once they've got the cage up. Elves do not have enough Guard or ST 4+ for that, in general. I mean, I do it with flings too, but only the expendable ones, and only one or two of them, not the whole team!
--
Is it just that the play style that gets you a big bunch of stars, wins, and cash in a short time doesn't actually work in eternal play format? That all the hyper-aggressive ST 3 defence walls, casual 3+ passing next to their whole team, and leaping a guard into cages when you're down to 4 guys can explain the 16 strait wins at low TV, and also explain why the experienced teams can hammer them so easily? Because those elves took a lot of 3d blocks in the recent replays, and they only have AV 7. Obviously they can't live long at that, it's just maths, someone will die every 60 blocks or so.
---Admin Edit--- |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 17:21 |
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Timetis
Joined: Mar 31, 2014
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 17:21 |
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Hiya Tussock;
As the coach of said pro-elf team; I don't mind you making a thread about it. Since it's put out in the open, I do feel the need to explain my reasoning.
Pro-elfs are my favorite team to play. (Yeap, even more than humans). My playstyle (usually very aggressive defence with a risky offence) with elfs usually nets me a lot of cas against. Heck, I play humans and all kinds of elfs in blackbox, and none of my teams have a positive CAS-record, so perms and deaths feel natural and are usually not a big issue for me - I'm also not in the habit of recycling teams a lot.
In fact, I got a ton of longstanding teams; 160 game humies, 200 game humies, a 72 game pro elf squad, a 40 game Helf team and some norse with around 50 games under their belt, all box teams.
The reason this team stopped being fun for me is that, when over a certain TV (and sadly, when past a certain number of games), 'non-games' start occuring. Elfs/av7 suffers from this way more than humans or av8 elfs do.
A 'non-game' is a game in which the elfs suffer player losses in a very high tempo. An usual sign of said 'non-game' is that the elfs, of which I even run 13 man squads, have a total of under 100 player turns.
This is incredibly boring for me, as the coach. Since it's elfs, you expect this to happen now and then, but the higher amounts of MB/PO/Tackle mean it happens quite often.
Since I already have a pro-elf team in constant rebuild mode (Rain Wild), I felt no need to have a second one of those, and it was finito for Metal Mettle (Three non-games in a row were a big factor, plus some tilt; ))
So TLDR; elfs are fun at low TV, not so much at high tv; I do enjoy playing against bashers with them in general, but I like to PLAY a game, not sit and move two elfs every other turn starting from turn 3.
Oh ya; in regard to your closing comments; try out some pro-elfs yourself; they suck at defence, this way is my solution to that. |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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Aug 19, 2015 - 17:38 |
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Hmmmm.
I find this type of thread very annoying.
Firstly it's basically a name and shame and normally I would just delete this but another admin has already edited it and Timetis has said he doesn't mind.
Secondly, who are you to call him out on the forums like this? If you want to know why he has done something send him a PM and ask. |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 17:38 |
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Boooo he's retired a team! Lame! Oh wait...
That being said, I think we're mixing up 2 different things here: the fact that you can't avoid kill sacks in the Box, and the huge TV difference you can have after 30 games. I'm personally fine with #1 (as long as it's not every single game), #2 is another story. |
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GLN 17 is out!
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Timetis
Joined: Mar 31, 2014
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Aug 19, 2015 - 17:45 |
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Hm, that would ve been better, EA; )
I reacted since I felt called out, obviously. Let's not make a big fuzz about it. |
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Shakall
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Aug 19, 2015 - 17:55 |
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I was a fan of that team, specked many wild games with them. I don't think Timetis needs to explain himself for no one since he play many different long living and soft teams in the box. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 17:58 |
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I wanna talk about this but I'm on a bus with a giant iced coffee. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 18:21 |
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"this way is my solution to that."
I did not see any solution in this thread. I can see a tons of problems though... |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 18:36 |
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Timetis is right about non-games although there are some very peculiar ones where your team turns <100 but the final score is 3-1 or something similar and it's all because you sacrificed elves to get scores earlier in the game.
| Quote: | | Is it just that the play style that gets you a big bunch of stars, wins, and cash in a short time doesn't actually work in eternal play format? That all the hyper-aggressive ST 3 defence walls, casual 3+ passing next to their whole team, and leaping a guard into cages when you're down to 4 guys can explain the 16 strait wins at low TV, and also explain why the experienced teams can hammer them so easily? Because those elves took a lot of 3d blocks in the recent replays, and they only have AV 7. Obviously they can't live long at that, it's just maths, someone will die every 60 blocks or so. |
I would ask you to define work here because if you defined it solely by win/loss, I'd be comfortable saying that high TV elves work splendidly (High and Wood Elves are part of a handful of teams where I have a positive winning % and I started off terribly with both)
I break ranks with Timetis on where I find the most fun for my elves. You (Tussock) and me had a game a while ago against one another where you were ogres and I was my high elves - I got 5 skills out of that game and it launched Coca Loca BBL to some of the highest TV in Box and I loved it! Having 15-16 elves with no rookies and 3 superstars is thrilling to me because you have options galore, you can play lineups depending on opponent, you aren't up a creek without a paddle if the first 4 blocks of the game are KO/CAS. |
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Timetis
Joined: Mar 31, 2014
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Aug 19, 2015 - 18:37 |
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To clear that up; that was in regard to tussocks comments about my defending style, not about bash/box/elves. |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 19:14 |
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| Kam wrote: | | the fact that you can't avoid kill stacks in the Box |
Sure you can. Don't play Box. |
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Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges! |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Aug 19, 2015 - 19:16 |
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"most of them only have 3-5 players over 30 games"
this is EVERY TEAM IN THE BOX
what's yr point? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 19, 2015 - 19:20 |
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We need a thesis statement Tussock |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 09:19 |
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I do enjoy my late night rambles, even when they lack an obvious point. Edumacate me, correct me, always appreciated. All I did was notice was everyone else knew? Cool.
Thanks, Timetis. Sorry, admins. I am but a newb learning the ropes, looking for answers, wondering what others thought.
Right. So ... thesis. Yes.
My understanding. I'm relatively new here, long gap before coming back, so this is still fairly new to me.
There's a lot of the strong (S4+, S access, etc) teams at high TV in the box. Over half the games up there you play against them and the dorfs. So the teams with the best high-TV records in the box are those who can regularly beat those, which is basically Helf, Delf, Pelf, and Zon: blodge or die. Be cool if there was more of those, rather than less, along with the hard luck ones stuck in the middle, and stunties. Variety is ... part of why the game has 24 teams.
My observation.
Here's an amazing Pro Elf team, great to watch, great record, top coach who's not enjoying them any more. I guess when I read match reports more carefully, Timetis, you were trying to peak them and park them ready for a tournament shot, so avoiding all the MNGs for the next game was a priority, thus the early Apothecary use. No intention of rebuilding, cool, your team, I'm sure I'll get sick of some of mine in time.
Thinking about it.
This is basically how it's supposed to work, isn't it. The AG teams are too good when they're all on the field, so the rules let the ST teams wreck them and win by stalling. And the wrecking is designed to last so that the ST teams tend to carry a TV advantage too. The TV advantage for the ST in turn is supposed to grant the AG teams some cage-breaking Wizards and Bribes and Babes and more Apothecaries so that they survive the encounters, hold numbers, and can break a 1st half stall and go 1 up.
And that doesn't happen in the box (or anywhere outside League play, really), because it's not actually an eternal league, it's just an endless run of mirror matches. The AG that get bashed just play whoever else is stuck at 1500 and the ST that bash them are left at the top to bash anyone else who ever gets there.
I really didn't mean to N&S, Timetis looks far better here than me and explained himself in a good manner. Thanks again.
--
I think I'm playing in the box looking for a no-apologies eternal league amongst the ancient and famous, not finding it, and maybe I should just get on with looking for an actual eternal league. So my stunties would get some inducements like they're supposed to and the elf teams could smash me, up by +700 TV instead of meeting mirror chaos sides one after another.
But the scheduler, it's so handy. None of that picking rubbish and I can play heaps when I have the time, and not when I don't, you know. If the AG teams could just buy a Wizard and the stunties their bribes and chef and whatever the Ogres are supposed to take, that might help, mirror match them with the tools they're supposed to have. Not that the box will ever change that I can see.
Because catching a run of Chaos mirrors, while your teams gets worse every game, .... There's usually more fun things to do, I feel that too. Playing up against them is typically way more fun, because you have the spare Apo to ease nerves and the fireball and the babes to stay in the match. |
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