Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 08:29 |
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It doesn't seem to, and how can you expect it to?
The discussion is about a problem that is inherent in the matchmaking system of the Blackbox. We are playing an online game where there in one of the main divisions you HAVE to play the other guy even if you don't want to.
Despite the commendable efforts of the guys behind ARR and the fact that most of the coaches who prefer box do so because of the picking in Ranked, the simple fact that people are not able to say NO THANK YOU will always keep the douchebags of the community flocking to the Box. There is no conceivable change in the way the scheduler is designed that will send them elsewhere. |
_________________ Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 08:59 |
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JellyBelly wrote: | Yes, it's all well and good saying: 'get more players and all the problems will be solved', but how do we do that? |
That's a difficult question. Which is why it's important to keep in mind. And no, it's not "all well and good" at all. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 09:04 |
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Espionage wrote: | I've always liked compulsory diversity, can somebody remind me why it's a bad idea? |
Hi Espionage. Christer has previously stated he doesn't want any restraints laid on what people are playing.
That being said, your idea isn't a very intrusive one. However, say you set the limit at 1700, then I promise you people will minmax like crazy to get their teams to 1690 and a whole pseudo-science of "How to cpomb below 1700" will be spawned. |
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Espionage
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 16:47 |
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Quote: | Christer has previously stated he doesn't want any restraints laid on what people are playing. |
Right, that makes more sense. And it's not something that can really be argued with. That said, if it's got to a stage where people aren't playing that division, us making suggestions might not just be academic. And if no coach dislikes the idea (as in guys say "if nobody else can mono activate a killer team, I'm happy to play by those rules too) then Christer is only enacting the groups will, rather than forcing anybody. Right? That's not to big of a stretch?
Quote: | However, say you set the limit at 1700, then I promise you people will minmax like crazy to get their teams to 1690 and a whole pseudo-science of "How to cpomb below 1700" will be spawned. |
You are right, but is the problem Cpomb, or mono activation of high TV teams. If Cpomb is the problem, then fix that, if Mono activation is the issue, then suggest fixes to that. [/quote] |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 17:00 |
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Balle2000 wrote: | Espionage wrote: | I've always liked compulsory diversity, can somebody remind me why it's a bad idea? |
Hi Espionage. Christer has previously stated he doesn't want any restraints laid on what people are playing. |
Allowing people the freedom to play cpomb spam teams and be paired with way lower TV teams restrains the freedom of playing not silly games for the people who don't like to abuse the killstack.
The secondary effect is that people are encouraged to play cpomb teams to fight fire with fire, thus narrowing down the racial variety.
This is clearly a negative aspect. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %27, %2019 - %14:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 17:06 |
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Balle2000 wrote: | However, say you set the limit at 1700, then I promise you people will minmax like crazy to get their teams to 1690 and a whole pseudo-science of "How to cpomb below 1700" will be spawned. |
I assure you that you could cpomb at almost ANY tv level. I am not saying it will be competitive, but time to time will be lucky to dish cash at every hit. So i think this is a pointless argument, whether you like or hate killstack. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 17:57 |
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bghandras wrote: |
I assure you that you could cpomb at almost ANY tv level. I am not saying it will be competitive, but time to time will be lucky to dish cash at every hit. So i think this is a pointless argument, whether you like or hate killstack. |
For sure you can. In fact, even with rosters that require doubles for cpomb anyone can think of some ways to make a very competitive team at (even under depending on FF) 1000k TV in the right hands after a few games.
But I believe that the same invalidity of this slippery slope is equally applicable to the argument of "Minmaxing or managing/sweetspotting TV to avoid cpomb" - if it's unavoidable, well, that is not the reason to manage TV. I think, although I might be wrong, that if it is simply accepted that TV-based decisions are for reasons other than "avoiding cpomb", it is less frustrating when drawn against it.
If we will accept that we can encounter it any near any tv, then it is best to just accept its existence and then consider our team in "fugue" when not activated and "dead" on activation if playing purely to win. (Bghandras, I believe this agrees pretty much with previous statements of yours in the past?).
And if playing to build a team as well or for other meta reasons, then is it not arguable that we should simply accept that this is part of that team's story?
After all, to introduce metagoals (whatever they may be) to a game already can dilute in some ways the sole objective of "play to win".
I understand that this is all old stuff (and all we really do is rehash old stuff), but I think the issue here is less the cpomb, and more the monoactivation in downtimes, simply because anything that reduces the opacity of the box also reduces its (supposed) competitiveness - by simplifying avoidance/picking of teams, producing mismatches etc. But of course, the real answer here is expanded population, and to that there is simply no recourse. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 18:14 |
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Any new Updates to report? |
_________________ Comish of the: |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 19:58 |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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  Posted:
Sep 21, 2016 - 20:07 |
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pythrr wrote: | so ... is this thread actually going anywhere? i last checked in around p, 39. |
It's going in circles. Does that count?
PainState wrote: | Any new Updates to report? |
The two biggest issues, mono-activation and kill-stack, are still taboo and thus all suggested solutions are DOA. |
_________________
nerf indigo 2016 |
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bancobat
Joined: Aug 25, 2013
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  Posted:
Jan 27, 2019 - 14:02 |
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don't know if it's better to rise this thread from the dead or create a new one but i was thinking of some changes about the scheduler :
- schedule games with 3 activated coaches instead of 4
i know this has been discussed a lot, i personnaly don't see what big difference will it make but maybe it's worth it to give a try, like a 2-month trial then come back at the actual 4 if needed, instead of discuss it a lot
- less important i think but about mono activation, we could try that activating a team above 1700 tv will require to activate a team under 1700
But it was mostly about the first point and the possibility to make trial test period if it's not much work. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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  Posted:
Jan 27, 2019 - 14:13 |
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If games may be scheduled with 3 coaches then I suggest to hide the exact number of coaches ("some coaches have activated" instead of: "1 coach has activated").
That to make collusion between 2 coaches less likely.
- Anything discouraging monoactivation is positive, in my opinion, because reduces the chances of a TV gap mismatch. So activating 1 team above 1700 and 1 under 1700 sounds good to me. |
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Chivite
Joined: Sep 04, 2017
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  Posted:
Jan 27, 2019 - 16:51 |
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And how about a noise to alert that one of your teams got a game like in ranked? |
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Stewbacca
Joined: Mar 21, 2016
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  Posted:
Feb 18, 2019 - 21:34 |
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I've not elected to read through 45 pages of messages but I'd just thought I'd point out that my underworld team in the trophy have only played (and may only ever play) one game due to suffering 2 deaths and one MNG so their TV has dropped to 870. It's a bit disappointing as I'm really enjoying the trophy. |
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Rawlf
Joined: Jul 15, 2007
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  Posted:
Feb 18, 2019 - 23:08 |
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You could apply your Underworld team to a Bar Brawl.
Your opponent will be much bigger than you (well, everybody is anyway) but it is a game and you get your mng back, and some money and hopefully no further SIs. |
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