Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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 Posted:
Aug 02, 2022 - 22:18 |
 
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I'd like to provide the cost of different bb2020 stars, compared to building the equivalent player. (This was done in 2016 as well, found here.)
In order of how cheap a star is compared to the expected price for that star. Stars closer to the top of the list should be the most effective stars for you to purchase with inducements, compared to their cost.
There are four 'groups' of stars:
7 Stars: Absurdly good for their cost, take as often as possible, can easily change the game on their own; slightly better than a wizard
12 Stars: Extremely reliable and effective for their cost, but not gamechangers; take whenever one of the first group is not available, or if you need a specific role filled for that game; about as good as a wizard (compared to cost)
18 Stars: Good cost, but either unreliable or not outstanding game changers; should only be taken if you need a specific role filled for that game, a wizard is probably better
16 Stars: Very poor cost, should not be taken unless a role MUST be filled for a specific game
----- First Group: single handed game changers - you should try to use these stars all the time -----
Bomber Dribblesnot: 50k (-57%) - extremely cheap for what he does, particularly compared to the chainsaw stars
Baseline.. Goblin Bomma? 45k
Accurate, Right Stuff, +PA, Kaboom
+20k +10k +20k +20k = 115k
Cindy Piewhistle: 50k (-47%) - similar to Bomber above, but the special is a little bit worse
Baseline.. Goblin Bomma? 45k
Accurate, Right Stuff, +PA, -MA, -AV, All you can Eat
+20k +10k +20k -5k -5k +10k = 95k
Skitter Stab-Stab: 150k (-29%)
Baseline.. Hobgoblin? 40k
+MA, +MA, +MA, +AG, Dodge, Prehensile Tail, Shadowing, Stab, Master Assassin, -ST
+20k, +20k, +20k, +40k, +40k, +20k, +10k, +10k, +20k, -30k = 210k
NOTE: Skitter is based on a hobgoblin due to the team access that can get him (not because 'he's a hobgoblin'; should actually be a Gutter Runner if he were only Underworld Denizens access, where he'd be 155k (-3%), only good but not outstanding for Skaven/Underworld)
Hakflem Skuttlespike: 210k (-19%)
Baseline.. Underworld Hobgoblin? 40k
+MA, +MA, +MA, +A, +PA, Dodge, Extra Arms, Prehensile Tail, Two Heads, Treacherous
+20k +20k +20k +40k +20k +40k +20k +10k +20k +10k = 260k
NOTE: Hakflem is based on a hobgoblin due to the team access that can get him (not because 'he's a hobgoblin'; should actually be a Gutter Runner if he were only Underworld Denizens access, where he'd be 255k (-18%), still absurdly good for Skaven/Underworld)
Griff Oberwald: 280k (-18%)
Baseline.. Human Blitzer? 85k
+ST, +AG, +PA, Dodge, Fend, Sprint, Sure Feet, Loner (3+) , Consummate Professional
+80k +40k +20k +40k +20k +20k 20k +5k +10k = 340k
NOTE: Griff is based on a human blitzer due to the team access that can get him (not because 'he's a human blitzer', and should actually be a High Elf Blitzer)
[picon=699702 x=1 y=1]
Estelle la Veneaux: 190k (-18%)
Baseline.. Amazon Eagle Warrior? 50k
Sidestep, Guard, Disturbing Presence, Baleful Hex
+40k +40k +10k +90k = 230k
Morg 'n' Thorg: 380k (-17%)
Baseline.. Ogre? 140k
No Bonehead, +MA, +ST, +AG, +AV, +PA, Block, Mighty Blow (+2), Naturally loner, The Ballista
+60k +20k +80k +40k +10k +20k +20k +50k +10k +10k = 460k
----- Second Group: extremely reliable and effective for their cost -----
Ivan 'the Animal' Deathshroud: 190k (-17%)
Baseline.. Wight? 90k
+ST -AG Disturbing Presence, Juggernaut, Strip Ball, Tackle, Dwarfen Scourge
+80k -10k +10k +20k +10k +20k +10k = 230k
Lord Borak the Despoiler: 260k (-16%)
baseline.. Chaos Warrior? 100k
+S, Block, Mighty Blow (+1), Sneaky Git, Dirty Player (+2), Lord of Chaos
+80k +20k +20k +20k +40k +30k = 310k
Deeproot Strongbranch: 280k (-14%)
Baseline.. Halfling Treeman? 120k
No Take Root, +S, +PA, Block, Mighty Blow (+2), Reliable
+30k +80k +5k +40k +40k +10k = 325k
Count Luthor von Drakenborg: 340k (-13%)
Baseline.. Wight? 90k
+ST +ST +AG +PA +PA +AV Hypnotic Gaze, Side Step, Star of the Show
+80k +80k +40k +5k +5k +10k +60k +10k +10k = 390k
Wizard: 150k (-12%)
Expected: 170k = 170k
NOTE: This is based on how good it is compared to the stars around it, for comparison purposes, not because I magically know how expensive a wizard should be. It maybe should be 165k, which would make it (-9%), but I'm not sure that many stars are probably better than a wizard.
Wilhelm Chaney: 220k (-10%)
Baseline.. Werewolf? 125k
+S, Catch, Wrestle, Savage Mauling
+80k +10k +20k +10k = 245k
 + 
Dribl + Drull: 190k (-10%)
Baseline.. Skinks? 120k
Sidestep, Sidestep, Dirty Player (+1), Sneaky Git, Stab, A Sneaky Pair
+10k +10k +20k +20k +10k +20k = 210k
Scrappa Sorehead: 130k (-10%)
Baseline.. Goblin Pogoer? 75k
Dirty Player (+1), Sprint, Sure Feet, Right Stuff, Yoink!
+10k +20k +20k +10k +10k = 145k
Karla Von Kill: 210k (-9%)
Baseline.. Human Lineman? 50k
+S, Block, Dodge, Dauntless, Jump Up, Indomitable
+65k +20k +40k +10k +40k +5k = 230k
Eldril Sidewinder: 230k (-8%)
Baseline.. High Elf Catcher? 90k
Dodge, Nerves of Steel, On the Ball, Hypnotic Gaze, Mesmerizing Dance
+20k +20k +40k +60k +20k = 250k
Mighty Zug: 220k (-8%)
Baseline.. Human Blitzer? 85k
Mighty Blow (+1), +ST, +ST, +AV, -MA, -MA, -MA, -AG, -PA, -PA, Crushing Blow
+20k +80k +80k +10k -10k -10k -5k -10k -5k -5k +10k = 240k
Glart Smashrip: 195k (-7%)
Baseline.. Big 'un? 90k
Grab, Block, Claws, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, -AV, Frenzied Rush
+20k +20k +40k +20k +20k -10 +10k = 210k
Varag Ghoul-Chewer: 280k (-7%)
Baseline.. Chaos Warrior? 100k
+ST, +MA, Mighty Blow, Block, Thick Skull, Jump Up, Crushing Blow
+80k, +20k, +20k, +20k, +20k, +20k, +20k = 300k
----- Third Group: good cost, but either unreliable or not outstanding -----
Rodney Roachbait: 70k (-12%)
Baseline.. Gnome? 40k
+MA, Catch, Diving Catch, On the Ball, Side Step, Catch of the Day
+10k, +5k, +5k, replaces right stuff, +10k, +10k = 80k
Grashnak Blackhoof: 240k (-8%)
Baseline.. Minotaur? 150k
+MA, +ST, Naturally loner, Gored by the Bull
+20k +80k +5k +5k + 10% = 260k
Ripper Bolgrot: 250k (-7%)
Baseline.. Mummy? 125k
+MA, +ST, +PA, +PA, +PA, Grab, Throw Team-Mate, Thinking Man's Troll
+20k +80k +5k +5k +5k +10k +10k +10k = 270k
Scyla Anfingrimm: 200k (-7%)
Baseline.. Bloodbeast? 160k
Thick Skull, +AV, Prehensile Tail, Naturally Loner, Fury of the Blood God
+10k +10k +20k +10k +5k = 215k
Grim Ironjaw: 200k (-7%)
Baseline.. Troll Slayer? 95k
+S, +AG, Multiple Block, Slayer
+65k +40k +5k +5k = 215k
Kiroth Krakeneye: 160k (-6%)
Baseline.. Wood Lineelf? 70k
+PA +AV Disturbing Presence Foul Appearance On the Ball Tackle Tentacles Black Ink
+10k +10k +10k +10k +10k +20k +10k +20k = 170k
Kreek Rustgouger: 170k (-6%)
Baseline.. Goblin Fanatic? 70k
-AG, +MA, +MA, +AV, +AV, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, I'll Be Back
-0k +10k +10k +5k +5k +10k +20k +50k = 180k
Fungus the Loon: 80k (-6%)
Baseline.. Goblin Fanatic? 70k
+MA, Mighty Blow (+1), Whirling Dervish
+5k +5k +5k = 85k
Zolcath the Zoat: 230k (-6%)
Baseline.. Mummy? 125k
+MA, +MA, Disturbing Presence, Prehensile Tail, Juggernaut, Sure Feet, Excuse me, are you a Zoat?
+20k +20k +10k +20k +20k +20k +10k = 245k
Ivar Eriksson: 245k (-4%)
Baseline.. Chaos Warrior? 100k
+MA, Block, Tackle, Guard, +PA, Loner (3+), -AV, Raiding Party!
+20k +20k +20k +40k +10k +5k -10k +50k = 255k
Gloriel Summerbloom: 150k (-3%)
Baseline.. Wood Elf Thrower? 95k
Accurate, Dodge, Sidestep, Sure Hands, -S, Loner (3+), Shot To Nothing
+20k +20k +20k +20k -30k +5k +5k = 155k
Bilerot Vomitflesh: 180k (-3%)
Baseline.. Ogre? 140k
No Bonehead, Dirty Player (+1) instead of Mighty Blow (+1), Foul Appearance instead of Thick Skull, Disturbing Presence instead of Throw Team-Mate, -MA, -PA, -PA, Naturally Loner, Putrid Regurgitation
+25k +0k +0k +10k -10k -5k -5k +10k +20k = 185k
Withergrasp Doubledrool: 170k (-0%)
Baseline.. Chaos Renegade? 50k
Prehensile Tail, Tackle, Tentacles, Two Heads, Wrestle, Watch Out!, -AG, Wrestle + Tackle
+20k +20k +20k +20k +20k +10k -10k +20k = 170k
Glotl Stop: 270k (-0%)
Baseline.. Kroxigor? 140k
+ST, Frenzy, Stand Firm, Animal Savagery instead of Bonehead, Primal Savagery, Naturally Loner
+80k +20k +20k -10k +10k +10k = 270k
Puggy Baconbreath: 120k (-0%)
Baseline.. Thrall? 40k
+PA, Block, Dodge, Nerves of Steel, -MA, -AV, Right Stuff, Stunty, Loner (3+), Halfling Luck
+20k +20k +20k +10k -10k -10k +10k +5k +5k +10k = 120k
Frank 'n' Stein: 250k (+2%)
Baseline.. Flesh Golem? 115k
+S, Break Tackle, Mighty Blow (+1), Brutal Block
+80k +20k +20k +10k = 245k
Roxanna Darknail: 270k (+4%)
Baseline.. Witch Elf? 110k
+MA, +AG, +PA, Juggernaut, Leap, Burst of Speed
+20k +40k +20k +40k +20k +10k = 260k
 + 
Lucien Swift + Valen Swift: 340k (+5%)
Baseline.. High Elf Blitzer + Wood Elf Thrower? 195k
Mighty Blow, Tackle, -PA, Accurate, Nerves of Steel, Safe Pass, Sure Hands, Two for One
+40k +20k -5k +20k +10k +20k +20k +5k = 325k
Rowana Forestfoot: 160k (+6%)
Baseline.. Beastman? 60k
-AV, Dodge, Dump-Off, Guard, Jump-Up, Leap, Bounding Leap
-10k, +20k, +10k, +40k, +10k, +10k, +10k = 150k
Akhorne the Squirrel: 80k (+7%)
Baseline.. Ogre Gnoblar? 15k
No Right Stuff, +MA, +MA, +AG, Dauntless, Frenzy, Claws, No Hands, Blind Rage
-10k +20k +20k +0k +10k +10k +20k -20k +10k = 75k
----- Fourth Group: Very poor cost, should not be taken unless a role MUST be filled for a specific game -----
Grombrindal, the White Dwarf: 210k (+11%)
Baseline.. Dwarf Blitzer? 80k
Dauntless, Mighty Blow (+1), Stand Firm, Wisdom of the White Dwarf
+10k +20k +20k +60k = 190k
Boa Kon’ssstriktr: 200k (+11%)
Baseline.. Amazon Eagle Warrior? 50k
+AV, Safe Pair of Hands, Sidestep, Prehensile Tail, Hypnotic Gaze, Look Into My Eyes
+10k +10k +20k +20 +50k +20k = 180k
Rumblelow Sheepskin: 170k (+13%)
Baseline.. Beastman? 60k
Block, Tackle, Juggernaut, Thick Skull, No Hands, -AV, Ram
+20k +40k +20k +20k -10k -10k +10k = 150k
Skrorg Snowpelt: 250k (+14%)
Baseline.. Yhetee? 140k
No Unchannelled Fury, Replace Frenzy with Mighty Blow (+1), Juggernaut, Naturally loner, Pump up the Crowd
+30k +0k +20k +10k +20k = 220k
Barik Farblast: 80k (+14%)
Baseline.. Dwarf Runner? 85k
Cannoneer, Hail Mary Pass, Pass, +PA, -AG, Blast It, Secret Weapon
+10k +10k +20k +20k -20k +5k -60k = 70k
Willow Rosebark: 150k (+15%)
Baseline.. Chaos Warrior? 100k
Dauntless, Thick Skull, Sidestep, -PA, -AV, Indomitable
+10k +10k +20k -5k -10k +5k = 130k
Helmut Wulf: 140k (+17%)
Baseline.. Goblin Looney? 40k
No Stunty, +ST, Pro, Stand Firm, +AV, Old Pro
+5k +30k +10k +20k +5k +10k = 120k
Max Spleenripper: 130k (+18%)
Baseline.. Goblin Looney? 40k
No Stunty, +S, +S, +AV, -MA, -AG, Maximum Carnage
+5k +30k +30k +5k -10k -10k +20k = 110k
Captain Karina von Riesz: 230k (+21%):
Baseline.. Vampire Thrower? 110k
+MA, replace PA2+ and Pass with Jump Up, Dodge, Tasty Morsel
+20k, 0k, +20k, +40k = 190k
Bryce 'the Slice' Cambuel: 130k (+24%)
Baseline.. Goblin Looney? 40k
No Stunty, -MA, -AG, Regeneration, +ST, Stand Firm, Thick Skull, +AV, Ghostly Flames
+5k -10k -10k +5k +30k +20k +10k +5k +10k = 105k
 + 
Grak and Crumbleberry: 250k (+25%)
Baseline.. Ogre Runt Punter + Halfling? 175k
Naturally loner, Sure Hands, -PA, -PA, Two for One
+10k +20k -5k -5k +5k = 200k
Skrull Halfheight: 150k (+25%)
Baseline.. Thro-Ra? 70k
+AV, Accurate, Nerves of Steel, -PA, Strong Passing Game
+10k +20k +10k -10k +20k = 120k
Nobbla Blackwart: 130k (+30%)
Baseline.. Goblin Looney? 40k
Block, Dodge, Kick'em while they're down!
+20k +20k +20k = 100k
The Black Gobbo: 225k (+32%)
Baseline.. Goblin Bomma? 45k
No Secret Weapon, Stab, Sneaky Git, +PA, +AV, Disturbing Presence, Side Step, Sneakiest of the Lot
+50k +5k +10k +10k +10k +10k +20k +10k = 170k
Gretchen Wächter 'The Blood Bowl Widow': 260k (+41%)
Baseline.. Wraith? 95k
Replace Block with Dodge, Disturbing Presence, +MA, Jump Up, Shadowing, +AG, Incorporeal
+0k +10k +10k +20k +20k +20k +10k = 185k
Thorsson Stoutmead: 170k (+54%)
Baseline.. Norse Raider? 50k
-AG, +PA, Beer Barrel Bash!
-10k +10k +60k = 110k
I've chosen the baseline player as the closest player that (if possible) doesn't require any injuries, AND has any extraordinary traits that the star does. This isn't always possible, so if anyone has suggestions on better ones, let me know. A few (Bilerot and Puggy) had to pick ones that didn't follow this rule, as the baseline that 'matched' made them appear far too good for their cost, whereas some others (Griff, Zug) had a good match for cost, but not for effectiveness on the pitch.
Like that previous work, we'll assume loner doesn't give a cost reduction - that's the price of getting a star. I'll identify how much i think special abilities are worth, and skills will be priced based on the closest baseline player. I would LOVE feedback on these prices. Some players SHOULD get discounts because the skills are simply terrible for them (Black Gobbo...), so if I've missed anything, please let me know. I also wish that stars where the base player has loner would have Loner (5+) instead, but they don't, so I've charged these players an extra 10k over the other stars (listed as 'Naturally loner').
This also shows that the goblin fanatic is considered bloat as soon as it gets ANY skills. This really means that a Goblin Fanatic is bloat to start with, and no skills possibly help it, except random Block. I wish there were other changes that could be done instead (in particular, I wish they got the defensive portion of Block as baseline - they still couldn't knock things down without taking themselves off the pitch, but they at least would be protected from the worst of the -2D massacres.)
Based on this, and how in game effect goes, I would say an ideally priced star is between 0 and 10% lower than a player of the 'same' stats would be. So in an ideal world, ALL stars would be changed to a price between the expected base and 10% lower than that.
The wizard is added for comparison purposes only, and may not be completely accurate. For comparison purposes, CRP wizard would have been at the bottom of the first group, with an expected cost around 175k-185k. Also, NOTE, this means with an expected value of 165k, but a real 2020 Wizard value of 150k, this means the Wizard is 9% cheaper than expected, so this matches the 10% rule given above for an ideal cost. And some people argue that its slightly too good for its value, so if the expected cost was 170k, that would put it at 12% cheaper than expected, which would be a little outside the 10% rule, which would support those arguments.
Koadah and I have created a roster for these stars to be using the price suggestions i've made, found here. If you are making your own league, you could use this for your stars. (I'm not entirely sure how to do that, but it is possible.) |
Last edited by Nelphine on Jul 10, 2024; edited 233 times in total |
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Randobot
Joined: Mar 04, 2013
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Aug 02, 2022 - 22:56 |
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Eldirl is base Pro Elf catcher, not high elf. So 100k with catch and nerves of steel as a base.
Outstanding work, and a great read. Thanks! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 02, 2022 - 22:56 |
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Pro Elf catchers have one better PA than Eldril has, so in order to avoid the injury, I had to base it on the High Elf Catcher. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Aug 02, 2022 - 23:58 |
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Raiding Party is stupid good on a Human team. Makes chainpushed OTS a breeze, lets you break a cage with a (rather limited) free blitz once a drive. Also, Guard and Tackle are both important skills to have, and on a new team against veteran opposition, having them both on an expendable ST4/Block chassis is really really nice. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Aug 03, 2022 - 00:13 |
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This is great.
Feedback wise
I agree with Randobot even if Eldril has worst PA Elven Union catcher is what I would use as the base line.
It is interesting to see most of the undercosted players are those with +STR. With the old +50k cost a lot of these come much closer to the value of a home grown player. For example take 30k off Chaney he is 225k (priced at 220k); Karla is 215k (vs 210k); Varag 275k (vs 280k)
You have Sheepskin in your do not take list however for what you get, a Block/Tackle Player, he is really good even if you are paying over the odds for those skills.
You made a comment about +Str on Chainsaw vs Loony not being worth the full value but Kreek is still paying for his +AV which again he can only use agaisnt attacks such as Stab/Vomit not when knocked down.
I think Griff works better as a Noble Blitzer swapping Catch for another skill. That way, with 50k Str, he is about the right cost.
My view is Morg would be based off a Chaos Warrior.
Morg 'n' Thorg: 380k
Baseline.. Chaos Blocker 100k
+MA, +2ST @50k, +PA, +AV (+150k)
Block (+20k)
Thick Skull, TTM (+50)
Mighty Blow (+2) (+60k)
The Ballista (+10k)
Total: 390k (With 80k Str 450k) |
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Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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Aug 03, 2022 - 00:17 |
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I'd say you are probably doing Loner the wrong way round. I'd just knock 10k off the price of all of them with Loner(4+) unless they'd have Loner on the base model (e.g. Scylla and the Bloodspawn). That feels like it'd be a better comparison than just saying Loner is just an added thing all stars get.
Similarly +10k for No Animosity seems ove the top. Its a bit of a nothing skill most of the time |
Last edited by C0ddlefish on Aug 03, 2022; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Aug 03, 2022 - 00:23 |
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All I got out of this on first read, good work BTW, was I can expect to basically see Bomber in half my matches. |
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Comish of the:  |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Aug 03, 2022 - 00:29 |
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IMO the reduction of Star Players in BB2020 was an attempt to emulate TT play, set piece league play where you make a team based around a star. Get X tv in skills to put on players and off you go...Hold on...open play...redraft....set TV....Coaches complaining that in their local TT league certain stars are always on the field.......
Makes you think.
Back in the day of 2ED you could purchase a star player to become a member of your team. Granted he/she/it cost a lot but you could as an example have Griff be a player on your squad. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 03, 2022 - 00:58 |
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A few things:
Yes, I have to compare to ST at 80k. I think it's silly, but that's the rules. So I agree there are reasons why these players are underpriced.
I personally think MA is also underpriced in the current rules (just as ST is overpriced), but I'm not going to try to use any modified stats for this; even if the prices of stars don't work out nicely because of it.
Animosity for 10k is because the alternative is a normal gutter runner.. in which case 3 skills become secondary, and then cost 60k extra. 10k vs 60k seems a no brainer.
One of the best ways to deal with ball and chains.. is with a bomber, or even stab or a chainsaw. The armour matters a lot then. AV in general is also probably another thing that is underpriced in this edition, so I'm not going to change it's value when that's what we've got. (I can see an argument for Kreek only spending 10k on AV instead of 20k, but at the moment, I'm not convinced. He really is amazing; and arguably, I'll Be Back is worth more than 40k, so if it was priced higher it would cancel out any extra we get from the AV anyway.)
I can't just knock 10k off for loner across the board, because of the ones who have Loner (3+). But also because, that's how we did it in 2016, and that was generally received favourably, so I want to make sure that I'm keeping it consistent as much as possible.
I could base Griff on an imperial noble, and swap catch; but that's actually 20k higher than the human blitzer as a base anyway, so (by making dodge primary) it would come out to exactly the same price.
I could do Morg as a Chaos warrior, but since we must use 80k, that would actually make him cost more (and thick skull + TTM would be 60k, not 50k, since TTM would be priced as a secondary); that would make him 460k + 10% = 506k expected, which is worse than he is as an ogre. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Aug 03, 2022 - 01:22 |
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I think your stats undervalue the relative value of the player on the team as he's found. Like, not just Ivar, but any player with Guard or Tackle is humongous on a rookie team against later-season teams: those players then become less valuable on an experienced squad against a larger developed squad. Ivar is a game-breaker, but Rumbelow is almost as good, and costs 75k less. This new Amazon player with the frogs might well be like that too. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 03, 2022 - 02:00 |
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no, my stats are just by the book.
i completely agree with you that the book has some.. silly rules, but it's still by the book. |
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ben_awesome
Joined: May 11, 2016
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Aug 03, 2022 - 03:03 |
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I think you missed that the black gobbo doesn't have secret weapon and given the buff bombs got you may need to introduce a cost for this.
edit: changed sneaky got for secret weapon |
Last edited by ben_awesome on Aug 03, 2022; edited 1 time in total |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Aug 03, 2022 - 04:20 |
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Also, Secret Weapon should reduce the price of adds, as you'll only get them for 1 drive most of the time. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 03, 2022 - 04:32 |
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i compare to actual players, which do not get a reduction on extra skills when they have secret weapon. even though it may seem reasonable, they don't, so stars don't either. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 03, 2022 - 11:02 |
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Interesting read and great analysis, thanks for it, Nelphine! It could be a GLN article. |
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ogres are awesome 1-...
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