SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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 Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:02 |
 
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The idea in a nutshell:
When number of players on the pitch drops below certain threshold for your team during a match (as result of suffered CASualties), you're assigned with temp standard lino players so that the game would still be at least playable for the losing side. These linos could have standard Loner skill, or a new skill that completely prevents to use TRRs on them.
Lengthy explanation:
After a while a realization has dawned on me, that the main cause of my frequent burnouts and lost interest in playing the game was not even perm casualties themselves, but the perspective of being trapped in a boring match where I'm losing half my team first half and have to serve as a punching bag for another 40 minute as conceedes are generally not allowed. And when I say "fear" it's not overstatement: it got almost to a level of a PTSD, ruining fun game brought before for me.
Though I understand it's not an issue for those who play mostly high AV bash team, as I prefer AGI teams, that's a real problem. After all, the game is notorious of its snowballing effect when a slight number advantage soon turns into a huge one. The perspective of just sitting through the match, standing players in multiple tackle zones, with no rerolls left, for them to just be knocked down again and fouled is enough to make me choose some other game to play. It's just stupid an boring waste of time this way.
And I'm pretty sure even bash coaches may relate, as for them, though much less frequent, this is still a real perspective too.
So I naturally thought is there a way to solve this issue, without undermining efforts of a good coach at getting a lot of removals. The problem is, as I see it, is just when you are hugely outnumbered, you can't really do anything meaningful. And I mean not win, but do anything at all. Even elves will have no options when each their player is double based and no rerolls are left - and this is direct consequences of having huge number disadvantage. Basically, at that point you are not playing game - just doing some chore, because you're not allowed to leave. That's a very dubious game design, to say the least. If you look at any good online competitive game, you'll see that, even in the face of inevitable defeat, you're still allowed to play the game and enjoy the process. After all, it's all about fun, otherwise it would be a badly designed game.
So the point of this idea is to give some players to the losing side, but fairly crappy ones, so that efforts of the winning side wouldn't be wasted completely. This way they at least will be able to still play some game, though in a very degraded state. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:11 |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:20 |
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| koadah wrote: | Grumble, grumble. 
Elves should be able to win when they are down players.
The real solution is to un-nerf them.
That or just continue playing the old rules.  |
This seems to be one of the main confrontation points between old and newer players. Also, I believe it's the one that hampers the popularization of the game. The old folk are accustomed to design issues of the vanila game. The new ones just won't accept it, as the idea of a game that is a chore averts them. This is one of the reasons "old-school" MMORPG have mostly died out, and substituted with the ones that minimize the chores component. The game must be fun to play all the time, or it's a pass - this is the new rule.
So if at some point you have to sit through it for half an hour, not actually playing - this is won't be accepted, just won't. Using the Cyanide's game as example, what seem to happen is people either abuse concede option, or even resort to time griefing (now that concedes are harshly punished). And I beleive if they'll decide to punish it even more, quite a lot of people will just leave. I believe this may be one of the main reasons BB isn't that appealing to the general audience. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Mar 18, 2024 - 13:25 |
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I think you should play more and theory craft less.
This would also make playing stunty teams even worse.
And main thing is that blood bowl is not supposed to be fun, its supposed to be frustrating. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
Last edited by MerryZ on Mar 18, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:30 |
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| MerryZ wrote: | I think you should play more and theory craft less.
This would also make playing stunty teams even worse.
And main thing, blood bowl is not supposed to be fun, its supposed to be frustrating. |
Theorycrafitng eh. It's easy to dismiss the issues of others you are lucky to not facing yourself, right? I would like to play more, but I currently on 1h ban in Cyanide system for two concedes in 24 hours, both after my EU team was reduced in half before the end of first half. Neither I would like to play another game here, on fumbbl, as concedes are even less welcome here, and perspective to end up in the same situation AND sit through the rest of the match hating it averts me. After all, there are tons of other activities I could spend this time on.
| MerryZ wrote: |
And main thing, blood bowl is not supposed to be fun, its supposed to be frustrating. |
Then it's a badly designed game, simple as that. And it will never see greater popularity than it have today. I would say it will get less and less, as newer generation are totally not in the chores and dedication to old principles just because "it's always been like that". Either it evolves, or dies. |
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JuicyBee
Joined: Aug 18, 2018
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:36 |
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Just because you're not enjoying it doesn't mean it's a badly designed game. It's just not designed for you. Instead of trying to make the game adjust to your preferences, you would probably be better off trying to find something enjoyable to do as Blood Bowl obviously isn't your cup of tea. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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 Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:39 |
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| JuicyBee wrote: | | Just because you're not enjoying it doesn't mean it's a badly designed game. It's just not designed for you. Instead of trying to make the game adjust to your preferences, you would probably be better off trying to find something enjoyable to do as Blood Bowl obviously isn't your cup of tea. |
The funny part with all those statements defending the "old ways" as the core pillars of the game you must agree with, or leave is that I've seen them all, many times. Last time I believe it was in defense of CPOMB a few years ago 
The general opinion on that subject today is "good riddance". So, we'll see, in a few more years  |
Last edited by SeriliKirico on Mar 18, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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JuicyBee
Joined: Aug 18, 2018
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 13:49 |
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If you consistently get games where you lose so many players you feel like there isn't anything to do in the game, that's probably a skill issue. Having an "endless bench" would break so, so many things. Causing casualties to make the rest of the game time easier for you, even at the risk of losing your own players (fouling), has been a core mechanic for decades. I see the issue is that you like to play elves, you don't do it very well and you want to change the game's core to cater to your preferences and skill level.
I don't think there's anything I'm even particularly defending right now, just thinking this particular idea to fix something that isn't broken is just awful.
If you're compelled to play the game while simultaneously making posts on how there are too many casualties going around and bashy skill combos are too strong, you really probably should consider a break from elves or the game, or quitting altogether and finding something that brings you joy and meaning to your free time. Not everything is for everybody. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Mar 18, 2024 - 13:54 |
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Claw POMB hasnt been a thing for over a decade. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 14:03 |
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League has the ability to set the team 'base' size for the start of the game, and if you are under that, you get loners (instead of always having this set to 11).
For instance, I play in a league where if you have less than 12 players at the end of the previous match, you get loners to bring you up to 12 players.
That being said, pro elves (also known as elven union) are hard. They aren't a team you should start with. I didn't start playing pro elves until I had played hundreds of games.
As mentioned in the other thread, there are VERY few games I've played where cas caused by my opponent actually made the game unplayable to me.
The BASELINE for my game plan is to assume 7-9 players are enough to reliably score (depending on which team I am). That means, again depending on team, 4-6 players may be enough, and I just need to play at the very top of my game. 1-3 players is generally too low admittedly, but it's VERY rare that you start a drive with that few players.
This isn't 'oh, the game is fine', this is 'the game was designed this way, and it will help your coaching ability immensely if you realize precisely what is needed to score - as opposed to what is nice to have to score - and that you specifically have players whose ONLY job it is to get hit - which isn't needed to score'.
If I'm playing against wood elves for instance, if I can't reduce them down to 3 players, I always assume they will score against me on their drive if they have 2 turns. That changes how I play as the opposing coach.
Similarly, for my own wood elves, my slogan is 'If I'm not pitch cleared, I win'. Which is not a brag or a lie, that's literally how I expect my team to perform.
My slogan for my pro elves, once I did play them, is 'if they ain't dyin', they ain't pro'. I chose the team specifically because my opponents could smash them up (and therefore, get spp and enjoyment out of a match), and still leave me the favoured team to win. They AVERAGED 3.5 cas/game against - which means they absolutely were suffering upwards of 8 cas per game some times. And they NEVER felt like they were unplayable (with an 84/11/23 record).
Teams play very differently. Some teams, you must must assume you are going to take damage, often a lot of damage, prior to even starting the game. That's how they're designed. It isn't easy, it isn't anything like playing a strong bash team, it isn't for all coaches - both for playstyle or mentality.
Blood Bowl isn't like Starcraft, where all 3 races are expected to perform well out of the gate.
Blood Bowl is like a first person shooter; but your choice of race sets the difficulty. Some races are easy difficulty, and some races are ultra violence/nightmare difficulty. They are not designed to give the same experience to the player, and should only be chosen by players with the experience to know what is needed to play that race - both in terms of how to win, but also in terms of how to mentally adapt to the playstyle. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Mar 18, 2024 - 14:23 |
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Quite honestly, I didn't expect to find much of understanding here. IMO, the answer to what is the future of BB will be more probably given at Cyanide's platform. The decisions they'll make in future years will allow us to assess needs of the general population that is interested in BB. I wonder for how long their system of punishment for concedes will hold, in the face of all the current issues (time griefing, low online).
I talked to quite a lot people about the game, also I got feedback from a few new players I tried to teach - and the topic of the game being too much of a chore too often came up again and again. I even saw a funny fact mentioned somewhere on Discord, about somebody trying to teach a new player, but they disliking the game and saying they liked online blitz chess much more: because it's easy to learn, easy to play and the moment you feel you are loosing the battle you can just give up and find another match. This is pretty much the voice of the newer generation of players, even in such intellectually taxing games.
Let's just take a well-known competitive moba game, as an example (DOTA). Nobody can say it's easy to master it, neither that you can just mash buttons or memorize all abilities, develop muscle memory and win all the time - it requires pretty much of thinking and planning too. But one can learn how to play the game in 30 minutes, and become somewhat proficient in a few game sessions. And even playing against much better opponents, though having zero chance at winning, they would still be able to play the game, at least, enjoy its process.
A BB equivalent of such game would be one where you, after playing badly for the first half of the match, would have to spend the other half while being spawn killed - while not being permitted to leave the game without suffering some severe consequences. I doubt very much you would like such a game yourself. But for some reason, such an obvious (in other games) design issue becomes "core gameplay" when it happens in BB. That just doesn't add up.
I think, some way or another it will be handled. It just won't work otherwise for a commercial project aiming to attract as more paying customers as possible. If not by changing match mechanics, then by giving more options to concede match that is already beyond saving. We'll see, and I think see quite soon. |
Last edited by SeriliKirico on Mar 18, 2024; edited 3 times in total |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 14:24 |
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As one of Fumbbls resident elf coaches with hundreds of games of elves in this edition, the issue isn't really the cas's. Elves, especially pro elves and wood elves, are meant to go splat. The problem is they took away pretty much every good tool elves had to continue to play defense when they're down several players and made 2 turning much harder due to passing nerfs.
If they gave all elves +1 to PA, and reverted leap then it would be much more manageable.
Elves are in a bad spot for league play except maybe dark elves. They're solid in resurrection formats still where you will try that 5+ dodge into a cage that you won't do in league cause it'll kill your Blitzer.
There are ways to mitigate the damage, but they generally result in worse success rate, especially on defense. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Mar 18, 2024 - 14:30 |
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bah, my wood elves are purely 2020. i disagree that they were hurt - again, they had specific playstyles hurt, but that doesn't mean the teams ability to win significantly changed |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Mar 18, 2024 - 14:32 |
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| SeriliKirico wrote: | | then by giving more options to concede match that is already beyond saving. |
to be very clear, this is the part i disagree with.
VERY few games are ever beyond saving. they simply aren't, and i've not only won games where i was heavily outcas'd, i've saved drives where i've only had 2-3 players left on the pitch. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2024 - 14:33 |
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Blood Bowl is not supposed to be easy. Its hard to learn, even harder to master tabletop game. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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