Prez
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 18:43 |
 
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| Garion wrote: |
It's a nod to 2nd edition. Which second season edition has leant into heavily.... such as the P stat etc... |
Wasn't aware of that, didnt get into BB till the 3rd edition in '93
So how did it work |
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Prez |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 29, 2024 - 20:13 |
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| DaFoola wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Prez wrote: | | Chaos Dwarf Flamers, fire breathing chorfs! |
It's a nod to 2nd edition. Which second season edition has leant into heavily.... such as the P stat etc... |
The funny thing about the firethrowers is that it wasn't really implemented in 2d edition. The Chorf team list in Star Players says you can have up to two mutants and up to two firethrowers but (as far as I can tell) they never actually made RULES for the firethrowers! I wondered why I didn't recall anything about this when it was announced... |
Correct |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 29, 2024 - 20:14 |
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| Prez wrote: | | Garion wrote: |
It's a nod to 2nd edition. Which second season edition has leant into heavily.... such as the P stat etc... |
Wasn't aware of that, didnt get into BB till the 3rd edition in '93
So how did it work |
They never finished writing the rules fir fire throwers 🤣 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 29, 2024 - 20:39 |
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Better late than never!  |
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NiozeH
Joined: Mar 09, 2021
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Aug 29, 2024 - 21:10 |
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will new chorf have any good matchup at 1k TV? (expect for Chosen,Khorne,Nobility) |
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BeanBelly
Joined: Nov 14, 2019
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Aug 29, 2024 - 21:19 |
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| James_ wrote: | | Cant wait for the carnage when Flamesmiths dont have block and av 9+ |
Yes this! I was thinking the same. I'm getting ready to throw my toys out the pram : ) |
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Painting myself into a corner |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Aug 29, 2024 - 22:18 |
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Reading the rule description of iron hard skin in the chaos dwarf commentary:
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...Iron Hard Skin, which prevents any adjustment to their armour value – even claws are blunted by this – so they will always be hard to hurt at a formidable AV10+
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It prevents any adjustment to their AV value. Fouling, chainsaws and mighty blow don't adjust AV values, they are modifiers to the roll. So, has the iron hard skin rule actually changed |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde
Last edited by Grod on Aug 29, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 22:19 |
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| NiozeH wrote: | | will new chorf have any good matchup at 1k TV? (expect for Chosen,Khorne,Nobility) |
Of course! Av10+ Thick Skull, ironhard skin and block is still elite! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 29, 2024 - 22:36 |
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Yes, Chaos Dwarfs can be set up on LOS and tank blocks better than now. |
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NiozeH
Joined: Mar 09, 2021
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 22:54 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Yes, Chaos Dwarfs can be set up on LOS and tank blocks better than now. |
IHS for sure will help against Necro(1 Wolf with Claw),Undead (2 MB) and against Big Guy.
But without tackle, arent amazon/skaven/UW going to be unplayable at 1k TV?
If firespitter arent going to start with block, or even worse AV 9+, arent chorf going to be pretty below average?
Whats your opinion? |
Last edited by NiozeH on Aug 29, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 22:55 |
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| Grod wrote: | Reading the rule description of iron hard skin in the chaos dwarf commentary:
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...Iron Hard Skin, which prevents any adjustment to their armour value – even claws are blunted by this – so they will always be hard to hurt at a formidable AV10+
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It prevents any adjustment to their AV value. Fouling, chainsaws and mighty blow don't adjust AV values, they are modifiers to the roll. So, has the iron hard skin rule actually changed |
Didn't the guy say it prevents all "MODIFIERS" to AV 
That would include all those things you mentioned. |
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"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 23:14 |
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| NiozeH wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | Yes, Chaos Dwarfs can be set up on LOS and tank blocks better than now. |
IHS for sure will help against Necro(1 Wolf with Claw),Undead (2 MB) and against Big Guy.
But without tackle, arent amazon/skaven/UW going to be unplayable at 1k TV?
If firespitter arent going to start with block, or even worse AV 9+, arent chorf going to be pretty below average?
Whats your opinion? |
- Amazons could be a problem, although at TV 1000 they don't have blanket Blodge/Wrodge. That means that they can be knocked down by Both Down results with Block. They could be a harder opponent once they get blodged/wrodged up en masse, I agree. But that it's due to a bad Amazon roster design. Yes, it would be a bad match-up at higher-than-1000 TV, but on the other hand I think of the improved match-ups for Stunties and Elves, and this has more pros than cons overall. It's trading a single bad match-up vs Amazons with more balanced match-ups vs Stunties and Elves.
- Skaven at TV 1000 are not a big issue because they don't have Blodge/Wrodge on Gutter Runners yet. They get more free disengaging but the rest of the Skaven team is AG 3+, so they can be tagged and either blocked or forced to dodge. Their overall AV is not high, so they should be removed, after a while. On paper it doesn't seem to me an unplayable match-up.
- UW have been nerfed with Swarming removal. They have some Dodge but at TV 1000 they don't have Blodge (the Gutter Runner can be blodged quite fast, but he's just one player). The other UW players are either AG 3+ without Dodge and AV 8+ (9+ in case of Blitzer) or with Dodge and Titchy but very squishy or with Dodge and AG 3+ and AV 8+.
The Rat Ogre can be quite easily blocked back (even with -2d and Block if necessary) and he's AV 9+, the Troll is more durable but it's just a single player. Overall, this doesn't look like an impossible match-up to play.
Also, maybe in the future Amazon roster will be changed, who knows? Its issue is the Dodge spam.
To put it in another way, I think I would play the new Chaos Dwarf roster. It's different but it doesn't look unplayable to me, so far (assuming the predicted roster on previous page).
I would like to play both Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf teams without default Tackle spam, because they would be more balanced in the greater picture of the possible match-ups.
If we start thinking that a roster got a bit weaker in isolation, without taking into account the overall balance, in my opinion we are making a judgement's mistake.
And mind, I'm a critical guy, I don't always like whatever new thing GW spits out and both Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are some of my WHFB favourite races (I'm not a hater).
About Flamesmiths without Block: we don't have the official roster yet. Without Block yes, the roster would be weaker, but we don't know it yet for sure. It's better to wait before falling into the pit of despair. |
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NiozeH
Joined: Mar 09, 2021
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 23:32 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | NiozeH wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | Yes, Chaos Dwarfs can be set up on LOS and tank blocks better than now. |
IHS for sure will help against Necro(1 Wolf with Claw),Undead (2 MB) and against Big Guy.
But without tackle, arent amazon/skaven/UW going to be unplayable at 1k TV?
If firespitter arent going to start with block, or even worse AV 9+, arent chorf going to be pretty below average?
Whats your opinion? |
- Amazons could be a problem, although at TV 1000 they don't have blanket Blodge/Wrodge. That means that they can be knocked down by Both Down results with Block. They could be a harder opponent once they get blodged/wrodged up en masse, I agree. But that it's due to a bad Amazon roster design. Yes, it would be a bad match-up at higher-than-1000 TV, but on the other hand I think of the improved match-ups for Stunties and Elves, and this has more pros than cons overall. It's trading a single bad match-up vs Amazons with more balanced match-ups vs Stunties and Elves.
- Skaven at TV 1000 are not a big issue because they don't have Blodge/Wrodge on Gutter Runners yet. They get more free disengaging but the rest of the Skaven team is AG 3+, so they can be tagged and either blocked or forced to dodge. Their overall AV is not high, so they should be removed, after a while. On paper it doesn't seem to me an unplayable match-up.
- UW have been nerfed with Swarming removal. They have some Dodge but at TV 1000 they don't have Blodge (the Gutter Runner can be blodged quite fast, but it's just one player). The other UW players are either AG 3+ without Dodge and AV 8+ (9+ in case of Blitzer) or with Dodge and Titchy but very squishy or with Dodge and AG 3+ and AV 8+.
The Rat Ogre can be quite easily blocked back (even with -2d and Block if necessary) and he's AV 9+, the Troll is more durable but it's just a single player. Overall, this doesn't look like an impossible match-up to play.
Also, maybe in the future Amazon roster will be changed, who knows? Its issue is the Dodge spam. |
Against Amazon for sure with 4 starting block, knocking them down it will not be a big issue (worse than before, but still very viable). I thought more about burning Amazon's rerolls not conceding free 1/9 without expending TR.
Against Skaven your point is correct, i agree that the matchup will not vary very much. Same for UW.
Basically this rework force you to slow down guardspam because u have to take a couple of tackle.
I, as Chorf coach, i dont despite totally the remove of tackles, but i hope flamespitter are going to be AV 10+ Block, cause without block and AV9+ they would be trash imo. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 23:34 |
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| Garion wrote: | | It's a nod to 2nd edition. Which second season edition has leant into heavily.... such as the P stat etc... |
Hmm
But why tho
Why would that need to be a source of inspiration. Especially if rules for flame breathing didn’t even exist then
Are you being too generous in your interpretation there? Are you attributing too much to GW being lore faithful to something 30 years ago that probably 5 people total in the world remember.. when instead the simpler explanation is they stumbled into a coincidence? |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Aug 29, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 29, 2024 - 23:37 |
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Yes, Amazons would have more free disengaging, but as you know, 3+ dodges with Dodge are not that reliable (statistically speaking, long term, they are, but in a single turn failing an early and/or important dodge could end it, letting the rest of team marked). You can still mark the Amazons who have dodged the next turn with more durable Chorfs. Also, consider that the old Amazon roster started with 0-4 Blodge Blitzers. That would have been an issue, because without Tackle knocking down 4 Blodgers would have been harder. The current roster has no starting Blodgers.
The rework slows down the Guard spam and the Mighty Blow spam as well, consider that.
Tacklemb is what makes many match-ups quite broken.
By the way, I think I would build the Bull Centaurs with Block and Tackle.
It's better to have Tackle on them than on 2 slow Flamesmiths or Blockers.
A single Stabba could be an extra safety as well vs AV 8+ Blodgers. |
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