FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 16:47

RDaneel wrote:

-Multi reroll is good and is wrong to say that favor bad play.
-Elf are good if you are able to use.
-Several coaches use to play them in Box. In the Trophy they are quite successful
-Elf should have one good thrower and stop: have any elf as an emergency thrower was wrong; so happy GW corrected.

I agree with all of these, although multi rerolls is neutral, not good.

RDaneel wrote:

-Play hundreds of games with the same team of elves is practiced by a subset few coaches and don't have any statistical meaning.

-playing less than several dozen games with the same team doesn't engage with the progression rules of the book, and doesn't have any statistical meaning on the effectiveness of the ruleset.

Jayward

Joined: Dec 22, 2020

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 17:24

Speaking of rerolls (and trying to drag this Elf thread back to Chorfs!), I wonder if they'll still have 70k rerolls?

Every team they've released or redesigned since the start of the edition has had 60k rerolls except for Imperial Nobility (and Gnomes...?), so I don't think it's crazy to assume the Chorfs might get the same

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 17:53

RDaneel wrote:

-Elf should have one good thrower and stop: have any elf as an emergency thrower was wrong; so happy GW corrected.

What!?

They're elves!!

What's wrong with you guys? Rolling Eyes

RDaneel wrote:

-Play hundreds of games with the same team of elves is practiced by a subset few coaches and don't have any statistical meaning.

But they are the coaches that count. Mr. Green

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 18:14

One of the fun and fluffy thing Elves had was being able to pass well with any player. It's not just a matter of background, but practical gameplay too: Elves use to be outnumbered often and the possibility to throw an emergency pass with any player gave them a chance.
It's even explained in the background: they want to avoid the carnage of the violent scrums and instead they pass often (Dark Elves are an exception and favour the running game over the passing game, but they are supposed to have a Runner able to Dump-Off, which, with PA 3+, no Pass and Wildly Inaccurate, it's quite risky).
Of course not every Elf should be a Thrower with PA 2+ and Pass, but the other Elves should get at least +1 added to their current PA stat.
If this is not shared and people think that only the Throwers should be able to pass, fine, then give PA - to the rest of them and make them cheaper. This would be against the fluff but it would be practical from a perspective of TV efficiency.
Either are ok for me, but I don't like to pay these Elves unable to pass reliably as much as the old Elves able to be emergency Throwers.

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 20:06

MattDakka wrote:

One of the fun and fluffy thing Elves had was being able to pass well with any player. .

but of what? GW has already amended this aberration and there must be a reason no?
Let's stop talking nonsense in public please.

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NiozeH

Joined: Mar 09, 2021

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 21:33

MattDakka wrote:

One of the fun and fluffy thing Elves had was being able to pass well with any player. It's not just a matter of background, but practical gameplay too: Elves use to be outnumbered often and the possibility to throw an emergency pass with any player gave them a chance.
It's even explained in the background: they want to avoid the carnage of the violent scrums and instead they pass often (Dark Elves are an exception and favour the running game over the passing game, but they are supposed to have a Runner able to Dump-Off, which, with PA 3+, no Pass and Wildly Inaccurate, it's quite risky).
Of course not every Elf should be a Thrower with PA 2+ and Pass, but the other Elves should get at least +1 added to their current PA stat.
If this is not shared and people think that only the Throwers should be able to pass, fine, then give PA - to the rest of them and make them cheaper. This would be against the fluff but it would be practical from a perspective of TV efficiency.
Either are ok for me, but I don't like to pay these Elves unable to pass reliably as much as the old Elves able to be emergency Throwers.

A dwarf player could use the same logic to say that in his opinion tackle should remain as starting skill for Dwarf Lineman for fluff and gameplay point of view.
Talking about player cost.
A human lineman cost 50k, a dark elf lineman (that is a human lineman with Ag skill access and +1 ag) cost 70k.
How can someone,objectively, say that Delves lineman are overpriced?
Dwarves will lost tackle, Elves lost PA,all that matters is that the game should be balanced, and i hope will be more balanced in the future, in my opinion.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 21:44

No, because a Dwarf is slow and clumsy and lacks the agility and speed to tackle a player with Dodge (I assume you know a bit the fantasy genre to know that).

Because DE Linemen can't use their AG like in the past to pass the ball, that's why (how many times shall I write that?). They should cost 65k now due to that (or 70k, but with a better PA than 4+). Also, as said in other topics about players' prices, you should judge the players' costs considering their roster, not in isolation one by one.
Humans have 5 players with S access, a ST 5 player and now they have a PA 2+ Thrower (which is too high, he should have PA 3+ and maybe Accurate or On The Ball, but not PA 2+).
Humans can either 1TTD or score with TTM. They are better than Dark Elves and have more options.
Since the Human Linemen are cheaper, they can afford to randomize G skills and they could have a good G skill at 60 TV (which is a bargain).
Yes, Dark Elf linos have A access, but they tend to die before getting 2 skills (if you want to get Blodge or Wrodge you have to pick them, it's unlikely getting them both randomly). If you have 2 picked skills their TV is 110, it's a lot for what they do and they are easily removed from the pitch by Tacklemb.
So, their A access is nice but not so good, for the simple reason they get Blodge or Wrodge late (don't forget that there is no MVP nomination and it's harder to skill them up, also, vanity passes fail more often with PA 4+). There is Season Re-Draft too, if they survive.
If you randomize a skill on a DE lino you risk to get a bad one and, if you fire him, he's expensive to replace, unlike a Human lino. The cheapness of Human linos is a pro, because they can randomize G skills and, in case of bad skill, they can be fired and replaced more easily than a DE lino.
Who cares if the Human lino is worse than the DE lino due to lack of A access, when the rest of the Human team is better due to S access, a good (I'd say better, with a Thrower with PA 2+ and Pass and a MA 8 Catcher who can take Diving Catch) passing game, a Big Guy and a possible TTM option?
Human linos are disposable and they can keep almost all the G skills they get.
A Human lino passes as well as a DE lino, I will never consider that right.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %04, %2024 - %23:%Sep; edited 2 times in total

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 23:10

An elf lino with 3+ PA should cost 75k. An elf lino with 4+ PA should cost 70k.
Specifically to avoid this whole discussion, my understanding is that PA is based on the agility and positional of the player, and decreasing it beyond that (for instance, making elf lino's PA - ) does not give a corresponding cost decrease. PA changes can only increase the cost of the player, and so decreasing PA should only be done for fluff reasons (zombies.. even if I disagree with it).

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Sep 04, 2024 - 23:22

If the cost increases when the PA gets better, then the cost should decrease when the PA gets worse.
It's maths and it's not an opinion. Addition and subtraction. If a player gets a stat boost they should cost more, if they decrease a stat they should cost less.
According to my anecdotal experience, DE are worse than they used to be and one of the reason is worse passing. Another one is worse Leap and another one is the level up system.
Even the supposed passer sucks, with PA 3+. Ok, he's a Runner, but he's an Elf too and an Elf supposed to pass the ball (albeit at short range) should have PA 2+.
No Pass (because then he would be a Thrower), but PA 2+ for sure.

DoctorMidnight

Joined: Jul 07, 2022

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 00:23

Imho, GW's purpose is to turn all the teams into a single tier.

Once all the tier 1 rosters will be nerfed (Chorfs without Tackle, unable-to-pass Elves, and so on), the sales of the different rosters won't be impacted by the meta anymore.

"Don't be afraid to buy our latest garbage roster with fumblerooski Ogres and shadowing flings, cause Elves and Dwarves can't do their usual sh!%t anymore!! Guarenteed fun all the way included in this box!! (Big Guy sold separately)"

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 00:24

And for my anecdotal experience, neither pro, wood, or dark elves have significantly changed in Win rate. Relying on passes or punts from lino was bad play that made up for positioning mistakes in 2016, not something that actually helped you win in the first place.

And no, stat decreases have never been matching the costs of stat increases. That's why goblins aren't 0k, despite having -Str.

You absolutely put basic minimums in so that people don't make minmaxed rosters. That's existed as far back as the game has had pricing formulas, whether people like it or not.

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 00:42

+1 Nelphine!
Player's cost linked to stats is not based in such "easy maths": statement like "if PA increase cost of player decrease" is very simple and naif statement. Because cost is not linked ONLY to PA.

to make more serious analysis :

a +20K difference from Human Lino vs DE linos is totally justified by AG2+ stat. In no any blood bowl law tables is written that an elf lino should pass like an expert trower at 2+.
But an elf lino at Ag2+ dodges much more frequent than a human lino so the +20k of extra cost is totally justified (considering same MA and same AV)) without the need to give to a DE lino an extra prize such as a PA3+ or worse PA2+ which would be a total unjustified. gift

I dont have any nostalgia of BB before BB2020 where elf could easy farms SPPs by making 3-6 pass per games. I read before "multi reroll is bad because encourages bad play". Another debatable sharp-strong- opinion because if you play well and you save rerolls is your ability which allowed you to use all at the end. But also who says such sentence then contradicts himself when he says that he would like the PASS at 2+ for elf linos (is not this an incentive to "bad" play too?: let's launch the ball at the end and 4+ 2+ 2+ ok with 2 rr ... not so complicated ?!)

And no, elf do not suck because Pass rules was changed. They just requires special cares in roster definition and play. Some coaches are quite succesfull in Trophy with elf. Then if you want to have your 300 games elf team with constant 75%-80% win rate you can play with your home rules in your special league. No need to return to the past in my opinion.

Again we entered in another Dakka vs All debate, moreover completely off-topic. This is getting boring so I'll stop here.
good night

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 00:44

In the case of stat decreases due to Injuries without price reduction, that's a design purpose in order to encourage firing players and it's a deliberate exception.
I talked about stat boosts or decreases when a roster is being designed.
About punts: if you never used a punt in desperate situations (after a sack or when outnumbered) then you have not played Elves enough. It's not a matter of "positioning mistakes", but to throw away the ball after a sack or because, due to being outnumbered, you can't score with a normal running offence.
In optimal conditions there is no need to pass or punt, but most games are not played in optimal conditions. With few players left passing or punting the ball is not an option, but a necessity.
Well, I think I'm talking about Elves with people who have not played them as much as I did, so yes, I have the same impression of a futile debate.
People talking about how good Elves are in BB2020 don't even play them as much as I do yet they talk a lot, I find it very funny.
Yes, before BB2020 the real issue of the game was Elves farming SPPs through vanity passes (6 passes per game in a real competitive match are hard to do, unless you are playing vs a super noob, by the way!).
The real issue of previous editions was Elves passing, it wasn't Cpomb and minmaxed killer teams!
It's like talking with people coming from a parallel universe. Very Happy

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 01:14

Oh look Dakka's arguing with everyone again because the game isn't specifically how he wants it to be, even though no one else who plays the game wants it to be the way he wants.

Can we get back to talking about the dorfs this thread is actually supposed to be about?

Zlefin

Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Posted: Sep 05, 2024 - 01:25

What's the rough estimated timeline for implementation? I didn't see anything in thread that covers that, and I'm not entirely sure where in the process everything is. Not that the particulars are that vital to me, but it's nice to know, and I like to read changed teams.