SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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 Posted:
Sep 18, 2024 - 20:39 |
 
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That may seem un-orthodox a bit, but still doesn't seem like too broken, especially when taking into account how elven team were nerfed in the new ruleset.
For all elven teams, mobility is number one defining feature. So what if any team under Elven Kingdoms League teams tag would be granted next special rule:
- Once per half you can re-roll any Dodge or Jump Over/Leap (and may be even Pass) action any of your "regular" player (of types typical for your roster, including journeymen) does for free.
- This re-roll can't be negated by any other means
- (!) You can even use it to re-roll a roll that has already been unsuccessfully rerolled before (optionally, it could work as Pro in such case, if it appears too powerful, so only 66% chance of re-rolling such roll with this rule); it's still also applied to Loner players the same way as TRR (so you need to roll for Loner first).
So, it plays to the strength of the team and only helps you if you use it as intended, it's not just "give them a free reroll for any action". And it gives back some of the potential that was taken from elves in the new rules. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Sep 18, 2024 - 21:15 |
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If my math doesn't blow, in case of a Leap into a cage with 50% chance of success, that will decrease your chance to fail that singular action from 25% to 17% if you're willing to use BOTH TRR and this new rule (to re-roll again after failed TRR roll) - assuming you also roll for 3+ before using this rule for this special case. So isn't exactly that big, but still may help the squishy elves where it's needed. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Sep 18, 2024 - 23:37 |
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Or.. if your opponent has an agi 1+ break tackle player and only needs a single dodge to score, you can no longer even hope for a failed snake eyes to stop them.
Without the reroll a failed reroll rule, this is just giving them an extra free (limited, but really, when was the last game you saw an elf team play where they use at least one team reroll pm a dodge? Yeah, it's just a free team reroll)
And that only costs 50k. If there are problems with elves (which I vehemently disagree with, my Win rates didn't change going into 2020 rules), a 50k bonus doesn't help. And even if it did, allowing it to reroll rerolls just means the thing people hate the most about elves - that they only lose on snake eyes - gets even worse.
This is a bad idea from both sides of the pitch. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Sep 19, 2024 - 02:00 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | Or.. if your opponent has an agi 1+ break tackle player and only needs a single dodge to score, you can no longer even hope for a failed snake eyes to stop them.
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Didn't get that part, tbh. It is still a reroll, even when it's double-reroll. So it still can fail, the chance of failure is just lower.
It's not guaranteed that this reroll will live till that very last turn in the game for such situation to happen, as your opponent may decide to use it earlier on another crucial roll. It's chance to trigger in case of double-reroll could be adjusted too, making it 4+ roll instead. So you'll have to decide whether to use it on some important dodge during the half, or you'll be saving it to slightly increase a chance of some crucial action that may never happened.
Still can't agree it's just team reroll either. On almost any elven team half of the team usually lack any skills due to high injury rate. They become the main source of TO as they have to either dodge out or throw blocks against somebody who keeps basing them (most of bash teams do). And this reroll won't help them to block better in such case, only to move around better. So, for example, you can't use it to reroll a crucial block if you've spent it on leaping. And this is in fact another incentive to burn it earlier in the turn, to save TRRs for future. What make the scenario you worried about before even less likely. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Sep 19, 2024 - 06:11 |
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Right. 2 different concerns.
Concern 1: to the elf coach, this is just a free team reroll.
That's the same as giving every elf team 50k free TV.
Either they don't need that because they're fine (my opinion) so no need to do it or (if we assume I'm wrong) 50k is not going to make any significant difference and it's still not worth doing.
Concern 2: to the opposing coach: the thing that bothers opponents of elves the most is the feeling that 'unless the elves roll 1s, they win, no matter what i do!'
Skill rerolls and team rerolls make it 'unless the elf rolls snake eyes, they win, no matter what I do!'
This proposed rule, in the feelings of people who already get frustrated playing against elves (and as a feeling, it doesn't matter how realistic or common the occurrence is, because humans focus on negative), will now have to say 'unless the elves roll triple snakes, they win, no matter what i do!'. This is a bad thing to do from an experience point of view, similar to clawpomb being bad (even if it wasn't actually an auto win skill set, it was still hated). |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Sep 19, 2024 - 06:29 |
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Yeah, if elfs need a boost (I'd say they do, but not as much as some elf coaches seem to think, their win rates are fine honestly), its that they need a little boost to survivability in terms of team building. The biggest problem for elfs is that they struggle with attrition, as in elf teams lose too many players to permanent injuries and death, so teams can just end up dying, even if their win rate is still fine before that point.
But to buff them a bit there, they don't need in game boosts to make them better at what they are already good at. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Sep 19, 2024 - 20:59 |
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| Drrek wrote: | | they need a little boost to survivability in terms of team building. The biggest problem for elfs is that they struggle with attrition, as in elf teams lose too many players to permanent injuries and death |
How about this: a special rule for all Elven Kingdoms League teams, that grants them up to two free Apo rolls during post-match sequence, each per every two players that suffered any lasting injury (MNG included), for whom no Apo rolls have been rolled yet.
So, let's suppose at the end of the match you have two mng, 2 stat losses and 2 niggling (a rather often seen case with elves, I would say). Also, one of the players that lost stat was apo-ed on the pitch, unsuccessfully.
So in total it's 5 non-apoed players. Let's divide it by 2 (rounded down) - we get 2, that's the amount of free Apo rolls (the possible maximum)
Now you select 2 players out of these 5 and roll per regular Apo rules on them. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Sep 19, 2024 - 23:24 |
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So, if you suffer one SI or death, you get nothing.
If you suffer 2 or 3 SI or death, in post match, you get to attempt to apo one of them as long as you didn't apo them during the match.
If you suffer 4 or more SI or death, you get to attempt to apo 2 of them, but must choose ones you didn't apo during the match.
I like it a lot more than the previous discussion.
But teams like lizardmen and khorne also suffer pretty badly from mng.
Unfortunately, I think I'd rather revert the injury table to 2016 before doing this. But, if that was done and elves still felt like they were suffering, I'd be interested in this.
I particularly like that it isn't usable during the match, and the fluff of the change is that elves treat themselves better than most, so it makes sense that way too. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Sep 20, 2024 - 10:27 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | So, if you suffer one SI or death, you get nothing.
If you suffer 2 or 3 SI or death, in post match, you get to attempt to apo one of them as long as you didn't apo them during the match.
If you suffer 4 or more SI or death, you get to attempt to apo 2 of them, but must choose ones you didn't apo during the match.
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Right, for just one mng or lasting injury you get nothing. The point is to prevent reckless plays due to knowing you're covered anyway - you're not guaranteed there will be one extra roll to save you.
In short, you get one post-match Apo roll for 2 players who'll miss next match (for any reason), excluding those who were already Apo-ed on the pitch (so you can't reroll previous rolls), up to 2 rolls. Then you choose who to try to heal. Could choose to heal wardancer who'll just mng, instead of crippled lino, for example.
| Nelphine wrote: |
But teams like lizardmen and khorne also suffer pretty badly from mng.
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Yes, I think any team that has a lot of AV8+ or less players need to have a similar rule, just may be with different thresholds. For lizards, I would make it just 1 Apo roll top. For rats same as for elves. For stunties could be 3 or even 4. |
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Bram
Joined: Jan 04, 2008
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Sep 20, 2024 - 12:27 |
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The rules you suggest add a level of complexity to an already complex game.
What elves are really suffering from is the introduction of the PA statistic, the destruction of the leap skill (wood elves in particular suffer from it), and the destruction of passing skills such as accurate (which has been split between accurate and cannoneer). Reversing those changes would benefit elves much more than coming up with additional rules.
Besides, making money is not such a problem anymore as it used to be, even for elves. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Sep 20, 2024 - 12:55 |
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Bram
Joined: Jan 04, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2024 - 19:38 |
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