Lokragen
Joined: Aug 20, 2015
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Oct 28, 2024 - 20:54 |
 
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Besides, I'm going to add a parenthesis, but at the time I often heard the argument of "randomness is made to have more diversity, it's cool"
now that people realize that no one keeps their skills too weak, they tell me "no but it makes it possible to make the randomness not too strong to have bad skills"
You might as well put white skills with the words “no luck, try your luck again” than having pile driver/ or the long list of useless skills |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Oct 29, 2024 - 00:16 |
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Yeah, Lokragen, you can't design a game around the fact that there will always be nerds in mom's basement trying to exploit it in every way possible. I think you should design a game to be fun and interesting for a group of good people to enjoy together.
If it's actually a good game, good people can then decide to get together and enjoy the game, in the spirit it was intended.
Exploiters gonna exploit. That's the 'general public' for you. What does Jordan Peterson say? I think it's that about 4% to 14% of the population have 'some' psychopathic tendencies, and good people just aren't programmed to recognize this, or to recognize how these people try and take advantage of every system they encounter.
Good government systems should be designed around this reality, that psychopaths exist, in all levels of magnitude, from minor narcissists, to perpetual victims, and far worse. But good games? This isn't government.. it's a game. One has to assume you are going to play a game with someone you know and want to play with. Games take two willing participants. Maybe not the newest, massive, online, money making 'games'.. but Blood Bowl is a 'small' game, one designed to be played in person, among friendly people.
Each individual can then decide to join a 'competitive' environment, knowing full well that they will be competing against people with hours and hours to throw away gaining ideal skills, feeding wins to buds, etc. etc. It sounds like your main problem might be with 'Basement Barry' and his ideal random skills ruining your BB3 ladder, and that your idea to fix it would be to do away with poor random skill rolls. I'd rather keep the randomness, and care less about the ladder I can't win, I think. Though I do try to do well in the competitions. (But I don't make EVERY effort to maximize my chances, so that's one handicap I might have against the best of the best competitors. Less patience.. less focus.. less time.. less brains.. all of these things might be other handicaps.)
I like bad skills and I can not lie. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Oct 29, 2024 - 04:30 |
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| koadah wrote: | Fumbbl allows us to still use 2016 progression.
It still allows us to just play 2016.  |
Oh I know, PEBBL uses 2016 progression for a reason  |
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dolphinandrew
Joined: May 09, 2017
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Oct 29, 2024 - 11:43 |
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You don't need there to be bad skills in the game to balance random selection. Random selection will be (sometimes) worse due to lack of the synergy skill selection it will give, both on the player level and the team level.
Ending up with the occasional second kicker, a player with both block and wrestle or a skill on a player that just doesn't have the stats to make it work well is I think a much better cost to cheaper random skill selection than just having a bunch of junk skills.
Junk skills are just taking up game-space (on the page, in our heads, wherever) with, well, junk. Skills can be bad, or sub-optimal, choices on particular players on particular teams without being just uniformly terrible and that is enough to balance cheaper random skills.
I also doubt the designers intended any of the skills to be junk, any more than they intended to make junk positionals or star players. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 29, 2024 - 12:42 |
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There was no need for most of those skills at all. They are only there to balance up the randoms. Talking a random should be a gamble.
They are mostly just unnecessary crap added to the game. If players who get those skills are fired straight away, that is good. It means that you are less likely to need to remember how the skill works. 
I don't know if they design the game for BB3 ladder or Fumbbl [C]ompetitive at all.
If the game doesn't work in those environments, the Commissioner can tweak it or not as suits them.
As any league commissioner could do. |
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Lokragen
Joined: Aug 20, 2015
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Oct 29, 2024 - 13:57 |
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for some, you are in the idea that there was a GW meeting
"Okay guys, we have a problem, we noticed that randomness risks unbalancing the game in an infinite ladder"
“I have a solution, we are going to remove half of the good skills that we wanted to put in, and put in bad skills, that will reduce the randomness”
“great idea, you’re promoted”
I think it's much simpler, they didn't see it coming, and had planned for poor skills without doing it on purpose (be careful, this doesn't call into question that I love most of the 2020 rules, but here they missed ) |
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Sharkrudi
Joined: Dec 19, 2011
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Oct 29, 2024 - 14:24 |
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yes in bb3, the first problem is the infinite ladder |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Oct 29, 2024 - 14:28 |
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"we are going to remove half of the good skills that we wanted to put in"
Nah. it's not this involved. They didn't have a set of good ideas that they binned
Instead, they just needed to make up the numbers to 12 skills in each table. So some of the new, bad ones, they just didn't have anything else they could think of.
It is unique and it doesn't break the game? ok in it goes |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Oct 29, 2024 - 14:29 |
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I don't like junk skills either. Sure, it's impossible to make 12 skills all equally worth, but it's possible to improve a bit the junk skills we have now, so players getting them randomly are not fired.
About the gambling of rolling random skills: when I have 3 Zombies able to take a random skill ok, I do it, because if they get junk skills they can be fired and replaced immediately.
If I have 3 Elven Linemen able to take random skills I wait to pick a G skill at 6 SPPs. If I randomize 3 bad G skills on them then they are ruined and I have to replace them. An Elven Lineman costs almost as much as 2 Zombies.
There is no true gambling risk when you can just fire & replace cheap Linemen.
It would be better, instead, to make random skills cheaper to acquire in terms of SPPs, but they should be priced like normally chosen skills. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Oct 29, 2024 - 18:20 |
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It was almost certainly that they had the idea for a random table. Then noticed that they had almost 12 general skills, so they made a few more then wanted to get the other skill trees up to 12. So they tried to make some stuff to go in there but the strongest, most fundamental aspects of the game already had skills, so the new ones end up being weaker and more situational.
You can't really design a new skill as strong as block or guard because there isn't that much design space left. Defensive was probably their closest attempt to do so. |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Oct 29, 2024 - 21:59 |
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On the surface I dislike random skills because I don't like TV "cheating" it encourages with cycling linos until you get one with the good skills.
My bigger problem with random skill though is that it necessitates the current skilling system we have where you are able to guarantee doubles and stats. I already dislike guaranteeing doubles, but I get it, there are some doubles that teams really kind of rely on and it sucked just not rolling them.
Guaranteeing stats is just super lame though. It means stats are only ever put on the already most impactful players, and makes teams feel cookie cutter. Every developed dwarf team is just going to be able to have a MV8 runner. That used to be a special oddity, now it's guaranteed. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 29, 2024 - 22:19 |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Oct 29, 2024 - 22:21 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Quote: | | necessitates the current skilling system |
Does it? Can't you have either without the other? |
Random requires you to be able to skill at different SPP amounts. I suppose you could do like, choose to skill random and then it would roll to see if you could do a double/stat, but still randomly from those? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 29, 2024 - 23:00 |
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| Drrek wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Quote: | | necessitates the current skilling system |
Does it? Can't you have either without the other? |
Random requires you to be able to skill at different SPP amounts. I suppose you could do like, choose to skill random and then it would roll to see if you could do a double/stat, but still randomly from those? |
I think that would do it.
It is the being able to guarantee a secondary by saving up SPPs that some don't like. |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Oct 29, 2024 - 23:24 |
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Infinite ladders are a problem in CRP BB16 or BB2020
The rules are designed around table top leagues that run 6-15 games most often Randoms in that setting are fine.
They aren’t designed around teams with 100 games. Plenty of CRP player development guides went if you don’t have a double by your second skill fire the player and start again ( for players without general access naturally )
Plenty of CRP era skills were fairly terrible with. 2-3 skills being worth taking generally on each tree. (General having more)
As others have pointed out a multi stat up sacker/ball carrier in earlier addition was a random league imbalancing statistical anomaly.
Risk and benefit decisions are the core of BB. The CRP era progression had no risk benefit decisions to make. |
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