The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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 Posted:
Oct 31, 2024 - 18:36 |
 
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Oooo.. are you dissing Safe Pair of Hands? That might be pretty situational, but I quite often find myself trying desperately to hold onto a lead for just two more turns with just 4 skaven left.
Safe Pair of Hands means you can kill my gutter runner with your BLITZ, but that ball IS going to be very hard for you to pick-up, and hopefully easy for my second gutter to scoop once I'm active again.
Safe Pair of Hands for the dodgey teams that stall out to win. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Oct 31, 2024 - 18:39 |
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The fact is, there are better skills to take and the slots are 6.
Your Gutter Runner could have: Block, Side Step, Sprint, Two Heads, Leap, either +AG or Break Tackle.
No room for Safe Pair of Hands in the build. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Oct 31, 2024 - 18:53 |
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That's a selling point for the new rules. A discount for a grab bag doesn't just let you fish, it incentivizes you to keep anything you can get half mileage on, which in turn encourages creativity. Good design in that respect, if you ask me; it's just the drawbacks that need ironing out. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Oct 31, 2024 - 19:07 |
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I play lots of games and the common skills (Block, Dodge, Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Side Step, Leader etc.) are still the most used ones. Adding random skills didn't change the games as we thought when they were announced.
There is no creativity, people mostly stick to the good old skills. At least, people playing competitively.
I sometimes find weird players built with random skills, but it's not a common sight.
With 6 skill slots you can't be very creative, the synergies between the common skills are too good.
Also, some skills are very specific: if I roll Safe Pair of Hands on a Elven Lineman I fire him, if I roll Sure Hands on a Zombie I fire him. There is no way to adapt and find a use for Sure Hands on a Zombie.
Grab is not useless, but way less useful than Guard or Mighty Blow. |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Oct 31, 2024 - 20:47 |
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That's fine.. you're a bit of a robot who sees no room for creativity amongst the competitive players. I believe you believe that. Maybe all of your gutters are almost all the same.. perhaps one dedicated ball hunter.
But if I'm willing to roll a random agility skill as the first and/or second skill, I will often have a gutter that can play two dedicated roles on my team very early in the team's history, at a very low price.
10k sprint makes him a good 1 turner that only plays when I need him to.
Add on a 10k or 20k Safe Pair of Hands, and I get a dedicated 'stall rat' whom I can actually allow to be blitzed on Turn 15, because I KNOW I will get the bounce I want, and I can position beforehand accordingly. Again, I would only play him when I need him, or when forced to.
For the same 20k you get Block, which is overridden by any lucky POW.
I chose to embrace the random skills, including the bad ones. As Carthage says.. new bad ones were invented to fill the tables out to 12, which I appreciate, and the old bad ones.. well.. didn't PG win Super League with mass Fend? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Oct 31, 2024 - 21:05 |
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I believe in win rate and performance. If the random skill approach wins more games than the chosen skill approach then you're right.
Without picking skills it's less likely to build a good one turner Gutter Runner and that's what makes Skaven win more games than Skaven without a good one turner. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 01, 2024 - 00:48 |
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We're not playing in a mature environment. We were, once, but the new rules allow for thriving play under the old principles, so it becomes a well-trodden path for those who aren't already good at just that. But please don't confuse that for an exhaustive awareness; in fact, if anything, it has a stunting effect on the community's sounding ability for the new edition. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Nov 01, 2024 - 02:27 |
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| The_Murker wrote: | | Oooo.. are you dissing Safe Pair of Hands? |
Its scary because the first draft of that comment I posted I was explaining how safe pair of hands is really powerful within its small niche of potato'ing better. But because that is situational compared to, say, block which also helps potato better but also does something every turn, SPoH is naturally weaker even if it may be slightly stronger in its tiny niche.
And that's not because they added it to be bad, there just isn't much design space left after you look at the staples for something that is going to have consistent, predictable performance.
You and Dakka read my mind there. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 01, 2024 - 09:05 |
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Right, but now Safe Pair isn't compared to Block. Pretending for a minute that they're in the same category, the comparison is the Safe Pair you rolled vs the Block you could have waited to get the SPP for and then eaten a net 10k TV hit over. And that assumes your Safe Pair guy didn't already have Block, cuz Block doesn't stack with itself. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Nov 01, 2024 - 11:26 |
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Block stacks with Dodge and works in your and opponent's turn. Safe Pair of Hands doesn't stack with anything.
Also, would you spend 20 TV to pick Safe Pair of Hands as Chosen skill? I wouldn't, because I can pick a better skill at 20 TV. It's true that Chosen skills are paid 20 TV, but the benefit lies in the "hidden" synergy value you gain by picking them.
As situational skill yes, Safe Pair of Hands can have uses, but not as often as other skills I can pick. I can use that skill slot for a stat boost. I even considered taking Safe Pair of Hands on a ball carrier, but the level up system grants automatic stat boosts, so I go for them.
10 TV for a random situational skill may seem cheap, but the real problem is that skill is occupying a skill slot that can be used for a better Chosen skill.
If I could roll 2 x random skills and use only 1 skill slot, then I could consider taking random skills. But 1 sub-optimal random skill occupying a skill slot can ruin a player's build.
I can do that gamble on a Zombie, easy to replace, but I don't want to spoil an expensive Gutter Runner's (or another positional player) build with a junk random skill. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Nov 01, 2024 - 14:22 |
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I think safe pair of hands has a niche to be used if you constantly face fireballs (probably league, not C), abd then you take it on an otherwise rookie Lineman. Then it's their job to get with the fireball, but drop the ball where your actual ball carrier will recover it. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Nov 01, 2024 - 14:33 |
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The rookie Lineman needs to have Agility access and that's a subset of Linemen.
Safe Pair of Hands would be nice as Sure Hands or Safe Pass extra effect.
Safe Pair of Hands is not a bad concept, but the effect on its own it's not useful enough to be worth to take a positional's skill slot. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 01, 2024 - 14:54 |
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You speak of skill slots as if this edition were intended for unlimited play. In that environment, keeping suboptimal randoms might not be a good strategy. The designers clearly didn't account for people who play that kind of Blood Bowl, except to discourage it by publishing official redraft rules.
Safe Pair stacks with all sorts of stuff. It stacks with Side Step, Fend, Stand Firm, Block, Dodge, Wrestle, Sure Hands, good AV, other players' Stand Firm, Side Step, Block, Dodge, or Sure Hands, and anything else you might use to thwart a cagebreak.
Safe Pair doesn't have to be "as good as Dodge": it doesn't even have to be "half as good as Dodge on the right player." It has to be "half as good as Dodge on the right player, given that this player either has Dodge or will soon get it." And if you roll it on the wrong player, that's just a hazard you got for aiming for half-price Dodge (or Defensive, Side Step, etc.).
I think it actually kinda meets that bar. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Nov 01, 2024 - 15:43 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Right, but now Safe Pair isn't compared to Block. Pretending for a minute that they're in the same category, the comparison is the Safe Pair you rolled vs the Block you could have waited to get the SPP for and then eaten a net 10k TV hit over. And that assumes your Safe Pair guy didn't already have Block, cuz Block doesn't stack with itself. |
My points was more than the new skills have to have narrow niches where they are good because the main mechanics of the game already have staple skills. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Nov 01, 2024 - 15:53 |
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If I can't get many skills due to Re-Draft as per intended design, then I don't want to risk to waste my SPPs on junk skills, especially without MVP nomination.
I just wait and pick the skills I want after game 1 of next Season or I risk to randomize junk skills when I'm about to Re-Draft the players and I would have to fire somebody anyway (which is a "forced" gamble).
Still, junk skills don't really change the meta.
If designers wanted to keep the players low skilled, the simple solution would be limiting the skill slots to 3 or 4 and stat boosts to 1 per characteristic or max 1 stat boost per player.
It's really that simple, no need to add junk skills and create a clunky Re-Draft system.
If players can't get 6 skills, but just 2 or 3 due to Re-Draft, then picking them carefully gets even more important, while, if they can develop without Re-Draft, then stat boosts and Secondary access skills are important as well. |
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