FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Nov 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 08:08

https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=16601919

This here is the offending player and he's done it too many dang times, at pivotal game breaking moments. A both down result where, when I'm in "power through the turn mode" pops the Juggernaut before my brain can stop my finger in time because I wanted the Wrestle instead.

Yes I realize this is partly a coaching issue, in that I need to discipline myself NOT to do this. But I mean...how often do I need to play this team in order to discipline myself so that I don't keep randomly forgetting down the line?

Sure I could fire the player, or he'll inevitably be killed along the way. But I'd like to think there's a point here worth making.

When the ball carrier is in sight, Juggernaut is only really useful on the sidelines where a blitz can shove him into the crowd. I really think Wrestle should be given priority and am curious to see if this can generate any interest.

EDIT: Or even better, have it be a choice which one you wish to proc. Wrestle or Juggernaut, least then a person could react to it better in the heat of the turn.

Last edited by Bluegill87 on Nov 25, 2024; edited 1 time in total

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 11:05

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

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Bluegill87

Joined: Nov 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 12:03

Garion wrote:

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

That sounds painfully slow and somewhat clumsy to learn, and rarely have I seen a coach that uses this method. Plus even if I did get the method down, I could still see myself making this same mistake when I'm in my rhythm.

It's not that hard to imagine right? Why I'm suggesting this? I've seen the speed at which coaches can maneuver their turns, clicking a prompt can be lightning fast and instantaneous when you do it enough.

So much so that it becomes like a 2nd nature to you that when you know you're going to make the move you want, you wouldn't give that all too familiar "Yes" button a 2nd glance when you're "in the zone".

If I'm being frank though, Jugg before Wrestle in the command order seems like something of a minor oversight to a very rare occurrence. It's probably not very often a player has both skills after all. I've only just stumbled upon it after being around for this long.

Though I'm sure I'd still find a way to misclick even if the choice was given on one command prompt...I dunno just some quality of life food for thought for y'all.

Habeli

Joined: Mar 04, 2004

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 12:36

I've suffered same when I try to play fast. Just should always take breath in once before clicking through all the pop-ups.
Same goes also for bloodlust and moving. Choosing block dice and such.
I know some ppl hate to play with me, since I'm slow nowadays, but I hate myself more, if I ruin the game by missclicking and/or missing some rule by trying to be hasty.
More so if I let the opponents comments make me play their game and not my own game.

Of course the code could be better, but not sure if these things are a priority over some other things that are more quality of life improvements.

Bluegill87

Joined: Nov 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 13:14

Habeli wrote:

I've suffered same when I try to play fast. Just should always take breath in once before clicking through all the pop-ups.
Same goes also for bloodlust and moving. Choosing block dice and such.
I know some ppl hate to play with me, since I'm slow nowadays, but I hate myself more, if I ruin the game by missclicking and/or missing some rule by trying to be hasty.
More so if I let the opponents comments make me play their game and not my own game.

Of course the code could be better, but not sure if these things are a priority over some other things that are more quality of life improvements.

Well said, and yes I don't actually PLAN to make this mistake again. It's easy enough to say that when it's only been a few hours after the happening. But memory has a way of fading until that critical relapse...

I'm not always a speed demon at this either, some turns really get me scratching my head that the thinking required will slow my maneuvering to a crawl.

I am curious though, does anyone think the prompt of Juggernaut before Wrestle seem kind of...out of place? Like the game is asking you to push a player as a priority before a move that was literally designed to counter Block.

As trivial as it may seem to most, it's just this one thing that's been nagging me.

Bram

Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 13:49

Why don't you organize a poll?

MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 14:43

Its fine as it is.

Skills ask question, read question, ansver question.

Simple.

Also if you want to be fast, learn how skills work so you dont have to read questions.

Luv.

Merreh

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Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 14:59

Bluegill87 wrote:

Garion wrote:

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

That sounds painfully slow and somewhat clumsy to learn, and rarely have I seen a coach that uses this method. Plus even if I did get the method down, I could still see myself making this same mistake when I'm in my rhythm.

It's not that hard to imagine right? Why I'm suggesting this? I've seen the speed at which coaches can maneuver their turns, clicking a prompt can be lightning fast and instantaneous when you do it enough.

So much so that it becomes like a 2nd nature to you that when you know you're going to make the move you want, you wouldn't give that all too familiar "Yes" button a 2nd glance when you're "in the zone".

If I'm being frank though, Jugg before Wrestle in the command order seems like something of a minor oversight to a very rare occurrence. It's probably not very often a player has both skills after all. I've only just stumbled upon it after being around for this long.

Though I'm sure I'd still find a way to misclick even if the choice was given on one command prompt...I dunno just some quality of life food for thought for y'all.

It'd be slow at first, but that's the point. It'd make sure you stopped making the mistake, then once you actually get used to keyboard playing you should have shaken the error.

Woodstock used to play with keyboard and he was the fastest coach on the site... People even wondered if he was a robot Very Happy

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Carthage

Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 15:26

Garion wrote:

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

So *you* are the reason I have to keep my toddler at arms length when playing blood bowl due to her keyboard slappy nature!

The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 16:43

It could be a coding thing. And it's going to be a touchy subject around here if it has anything to do with the beloved client not being perfect. It's amazing, and people will fall over themselves to try and defend it, even when it's not really being 'attacked.' But Merry's answer is generally going to be the most offensive for any one post, so hopefully you made it this far.

I like it the way it is, myself. Any blitz with my juggernaut is usually an important one, and I have usually already decided where I want the push to be.

Juggernaut CANCELs out any wrestle skill on the opponent, which is why I'm often blitzing a wrestle player.. maybe that has something to do with the order as well. There's also the Stand Firm dialog to consider. But the jugger means the push IS happening, so it makes sense to me we find out where it happens before we ask if I want to wrestle him down.

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Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 16:52

Carthage wrote:

Garion wrote:

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

So *you* are the reason I have to keep my toddler at arms length when playing blood bowl due to her keyboard slappy nature!

haha I don't play with keyboard. I'm too lazy to learn. but it is without doubt the superior way of playing if you can be bothered to put the time in

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Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 18:32

Garion wrote:

Carthage wrote:

Garion wrote:

maybe learn to play with the keyboard instead of clicking... this will make you consider every click more while you learn the keys...

plus when you've learned to use the keyboard its much harder to miss click

So *you* are the reason I have to keep my toddler at arms length when playing blood bowl due to her keyboard slappy nature!

haha I don't play with keyboard. I'm too lazy to learn. but it is without doubt the superior way of playing if you can be bothered to put the time in

I wish I could turn off keyboard controls for myself. Typing something in chat and accidentally using the apothecary off that feels terrible.

Bluegill87

Joined: Nov 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 20:42

The_Murker wrote:

It could be a coding thing. And it's going to be a touchy subject around here if it has anything to do with the beloved client not being perfect. It's amazing, and people will fall over themselves to try and defend it, even when it's not really being 'attacked.'

Yes, I can already sense this when something like this is brought up. I love the client dearly but it always seems a little short sighted when the only valid response to something is "git gud".

I'm no coder, but have learned that those responsible for it don't like to be messing around too much. Even one mistake can lead to more annoying consequences to fix in the future.

I like the suggestion about a poll though, will get on that.

The_Murker wrote:

Juggernaut CANCELs out any wrestle skill on the opponent, which is why I'm often blitzing a wrestle player.. maybe that has something to do with the order as well. There's also the Stand Firm dialog to consider. But the jugger means the push IS happening, so it makes sense to me we find out where it happens before we ask if I want to wrestle him down.

This is honestly a very good point, and punches quite a hole in my theory truth be told. Not every blitz will be on the BC after all.

The player of mine that I keep flubbing this on only has Wrestle because I'm desperate for such players on a team with a ton of Block already. So much so that it's easy enough to forget Juggernaut is a starting skill for him.

But hey, we're all about ideas here right? Smile

Bluegill87

Joined: Nov 29, 2015

Posted: Nov 25, 2024 - 22:51

The_Murker wrote:

I like it the way it is, myself. Any blitz with my juggernaut is usually an important one, and I have usually already decided where I want the push to be.

Alright, I'd like to pose a hypothetical scenario to you The_Murker if I may. You seem to have the pragmatism I can appeal to for keeping this discussion going.

Forget the coding logistics required, established norms and waves of backlash such a change would probably spark. Making this change is as easy as the flip of a switch. And that switch has indeed been flipped.

For the sake of keeping this fair though, let's go with my other theory, the shared command prompt as that's where I find myself leaning now. You're about to make a blitz and Juggernaut is at the forefront of your mind.

But now instead your prompt will read "Which skill will you use for your BOTH DOWN?" and the choices will be "Juggernaut" "Wrestle" and I have to assume a "Neither" option is there too.

You remember now that this particular player has Wrestle and even though Juggernaut is still the move you want, this simple little difference actually may give pause and consideration to the benefits of what Wrestle can do for you here.

This is my thinking on this, both of these skills have a ton of merit on their own. But they also happen to share a very crucial die result, something I think isn't too common for the multitude of skills this game has. Why is one given priority over the other in this instance?

I guess my question is this, would this change be acceptable in your eyes or is it truly something that has no benefit on it's own that changing it would do more harm than good?

The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Nov 26, 2024 - 03:01

I'm not sure how to break it down without looking at an extreme sequence. Once I do, I think the answer might be clear.

A jugger-wrestler (no block) 2d blitzes a dirty elf wrestle catcher.. SKULL / BOTH DOWN is the result.

A) Do you want to use wrestle? No. Does HE want to use wrestle? (unknown.. can't ask until you decide on jugger!)Do you want to use Juggernaut to turn wrestle into a PUSH? No. Does HE want to use wrestle? Maybe.

B) Do you want to use Juggernaut to turn BOTH DOWN into a PUSH? Yes.

Therefore, asking about jugger first potentially saves a second (and third) dialog box, and speeds up the game. Any chance to limit pop-ups will always be the programmers first choice, imho.

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Last edited by The_Murker on Nov 26, 2024; edited 1 time in total