Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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 Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 07:33 |
 
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| The_Murker wrote: |
I get the issue with vamps at high TV, and think that getting redraft pushed through the last hurdle might invigorate the major events for everyone, as opposed to just the die hard FUMBBLers |
I think it might help the issue with Vampires somewhat, but I remain skeptical that they won't remain just the best thing you can be doing at mid-high TV. And Frankly, just look at the Vamps that are currently in the race lead of the BBT, they're already 1690k in just 15 games. Redraft will knock down a team like that some in TV, but they'll have another 15 games to grow even larger.
The best coaches will still have high TV vampires that will still be the best thing you can be doing. You might not see the absolute abomination massive teams anymore but Vampires are still going to be a problem for majors unless or until they are nerfed in some way. |
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KhorneliusPraxx
Joined: Jul 28, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 09:48 |
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| koadah wrote: |
Who are the famous(/infamous) teams? |
Are the famous/infamous teams allowed to play? Are they still stuck in Ranked or has the site converted them over yet? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 11:21 |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 11:42 |
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| The_Murker wrote: |
I get the issue with vamps at high TV, and think that getting redraft pushed through the last hurdle might invigorate the major events for everyone, as opposed to just the die hard FUMBBLers, but if it's just a core of people in the events now, and we don't celebrate the winner of the BBT or THE Cup at all, we're almost to the point of questioning why we have them. It's work for the admin that perhaps just one player appreciates in the end. |
Majors were already in the doldrums before we got the new Vamps.
If anything, I thought that there seemed to be more interest in this FC than in other recent Majors.
But yes, I'm sure than some lost interest when they feared that it might be an all vamp final. It wasn't. 
I don't know how much seasons will help. They might even hinder.
I'm assuming that you could still get some mighty vamp lords into 1350 with a load of brand new thralls.
Having to continually cut to 1350 might actually make it harder for some non hardcore coaches to have a "Majors ready" team if there is still such a thing.
When you exit a Major, your team has to cut even if they only played one game.
Unless you have multiple teams ready, you'll need to grind your team up again before the next one
If you try to just go for it at 1350, you need to cut again when you exit and unless you progress through a few rounds you'll be hammered by the ramp.
If anything, seasons may favour the prolific coaches even more than what we've had in the past.
At least then, less prolific coaches would have a team that they could throw in.
We could end up with fewer coaches rather than more.
Unless there is a BBT for season 2+ teams it sounds like a load of miserable grinding.
Majors used to be about more than just great coaches. They were more about the great coach/team combinations. But also about famous, storied, maybe whacky teams.
I don't know how much of that we have going on now.
If it is only going to be about coaches then there is a lot of competition from NAF. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 13:03 |
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| koadah wrote: | Majors were already in the doldrums before we got the new Vamps.
If anything, I thought that there seemed to be more interest in this FC than in other recent Majors.
But yes, I'm sure than some lost interest when they feared that it might be an all vamp final. It wasn't. |
There was definitely a lot of vamps tho, the round of 16 had 4x vamps. Actually, that's less than I thought... There was also 2x amazons, 2x undead, and 1x of others
The bracketing prevented a vamp/vamp mirror in the final because the mirrors happened earlier: spinball's vamps knocked out my vamps in the round of 16, and baza's vamps in the semis
There was also 3x vamp mirrors in round of 32 🧛
| koadah wrote: | I don't know how much seasons will help. They might even hinder.
I'm assuming that you could still get some mighty vamp lords into 1350 with a load of brand new thralls. |
Yea so the good thing about the team is the vamps can skill quickly, and the thralls are disposable
So you can probably afford to be carrying 2-3 skilled up vamps for multiple redrafts
So you'd probably aggressively cut thralls / rerolls / apoth to retain as many skilled vamps as you can, and then rebuild quickly at start of new season
Carrying veteran players for a lot of seasons will become too much of a burden though.. so probably teams would not have more than 1x legends
It also means saving for stats is less viable, which is bad for vamps
| koadah wrote: | Having to continually cut to 1350 might actually make it harder for some non hardcore coaches to have a "Majors ready" team if there is still such a thing.
When you exit a Major, your team has to cut even if they only played one game.
Unless you have multiple teams ready, you'll need to grind your team up again before the next one |
As I understand it, you'd play your season of 15 games, and then be in some kind of 'tournament ready' state which means you've not redrafted yet, and are probably at say 1700k or something like that
You then go into the tournament, and redraft as normal upon exiting
So that means by entering a tourney at the end of each season, you can stretch it out so that it's 15+n games between redrafts where 'n' is however many games you play in the tourney
So it's not: 15 games > redraft > tourney > redraft again
Instead it is: 15 games > tourney > redraft
| koadah wrote: | If anything, seasons may favour the prolific coaches even more than what we've had in the past.
At least then, less prolific coaches would have a team that they could throw in.
We could end up with fewer coaches rather than more.
Unless there is a BBT for season 2+ teams it sounds like a load of miserable grinding. |
I don't follow what you mean here
Seasons are definitely bad for player types that take a long time to skill: saurus, golems, black orcs, big uns, bloaters, etc
| koadah wrote: | Majors used to be about more than just great coaches. They were more about the great coach/team combinations. But also about famous, storied, maybe whacky teams.
I don't know how much of that we have going on now. |
The change you're talking about isn't anything to do with the ruleset, it's a playerbase issue... and probably Milford retiring has had a substantial impact on hype all by himself
Also if you're not playing these tourneys, against these teams, you're less aware of them anyway
Hmmm... however yes there are some factors from the ruleset & the way [C] is structured:
- BBT means lots of teams are retired after 15 games
- The box scheduler now doesn't match teams under 15 games against those over 15 games
- Inducements (particularly megastars) mean being the overdog isn't the advantage it used to be
- Clawpomb is gone so there's not that same killy arms race
- 10k randoms to keep TV down
Therefore the average TV in matches skews lower than it used to |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 15:07 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | Having to continually cut to 1350 might actually make it harder for some non hardcore coaches to have a "Majors ready" team if there is still such a thing.
When you exit a Major, your team has to cut even if they only played one game.
Unless you have multiple teams ready, you'll need to grind your team up again before the next one |
As I understand it, you'd play your season of 15 games, and then be in some kind of 'tournament ready' state which means you've not redrafted yet, and are probably at say 1700k or something like that
You then go into the tournament, and redraft as normal upon exiting
So that means by entering a tourney at the end of each season, you can stretch it out so that it's 15+n games between redrafts where 'n' is however many games you play in the tourney
So it's not: 15 games > redraft > tourney > redraft again
Instead it is: 15 games > tourney > redraft |
True. But for us weaker coaches, we're only going to play one or two tournament games before being eliminated and having to cut down.
Then it is another grind to build up. If there is no S2+ BBT I'm not seeing the incentive to do that.
Brawls & Majors may help but getting the games in before the next Major might be a challenge.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | If anything, seasons may favour the prolific coaches even more than what we've had in the past.
At least then, less prolific coaches would have a team that they could throw in.
We could end up with fewer coaches rather than more.
Unless there is a BBT for season 2+ teams it sounds like a load of miserable grinding. |
I don't follow what you mean here
Seasons are definitely bad for player types that take a long time to skill: saurus, golems, black orcs, big uns, bloaters, etc |
Basically, without S2+ BBT it's seasons without a season.
I used to run the Black Box Sprint and the HLP. BBT has more than replaced them but is new teams only.
So I'm not seeing the incentive to even create any [C] division teams right now.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | Majors used to be about more than just great coaches. They were more about the great coach/team combinations. But also about famous, storied, maybe whacky teams.
I don't know how much of that we have going on now. |
The change you're talking about isn't anything to do with the ruleset, it's a playerbase issue... and probably Milford retiring has had a substantial impact on hype all by himself |
The rules are a big part of it. It is the rules that cost us the likes of PainState.
Basically, the spirit of what made the old Ranked & Box divisions great for people like me seems to be mostly missing.
The new progression rules are part of that. For me, seasons are a massive part.
I liked playing at around 1600-1700 in the old box. The HLP Sprint only counted games over 1600.
Sure, you'd take some beatings but mostly only down to about 1400. And at least you had a tale to tell about the game that cost you those players.
Something a bit better than just "agent's fees". 
I am guessing that the new rules are less swingy than the old ones. Which for a competitive division I suppose is good.
But my gut feel is that there may now be a wider gap between the top coaches and rest which may not encourage weaker coaches to take part.
Even if that is not true. We still had the goal of building a big and hopefully famous team eventually.
Now our Manchester City will get cut down to a Bolton without even having a song to sing.
Part of playing for fluffier coaches was less about winning but more about gaining fame. Perhaps going on a good run but maybe just drawing a famous team, drawing plenty of specs and hopefully giving them a good game.
Maybe. Just maybe causing a shock!
| Sp00keh wrote: |
Also if you're not playing these tourneys, against these teams, you're less aware of them anyway. |
That is mainly the point. In the past people seemed far more interested even if they were not playing.
Though of course, far more people were playing.
There seemed to be more buzz in chat and the forums.
Though, I think that there was more buzz generally.
One of the things that I didn't like about Cyanide is that every league seemed to have it's own website, own forum, own chat channel. Fumbbl was at least all in one place. Maybe more chat is drifting more to leagues as it is so easy to create a discord server.
There was the fluff draw of not just seeing the famous coaches clash but also famous teams clash and hopefully see some legendary monstrosities die. 
As Jervis said, the game was created by people who gathered together on a Sunday to watch the NFL on Channel 4.
The old Fumbbl Ranked & Box divisions drew on that spirit probably more than any other format. You could create your own Joe Montanas, Jerry Rices, Fridges etc. and play them for good careers. People were interested in the Top Lists
Even if you couldn't win a match you could be the team that killed the ultra-freak that everyone hated. 
But yeah. Many people now are just playing a strategy game and don't care much for the fluff at all. 
So, no. Not just Milford. Also the Buccs, Hellfishes etc., etc.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
Hmmm... however yes there are some factors from the ruleset & the way [C] is structured:
- BBT means lots of teams are retired after 15 games
- The box scheduler now doesn't match teams under 15 games against those over 15 games
- Inducements (particularly megastars) mean being the overdog isn't the advantage it used to be
- Clawpomb is gone so there's not that same killy arms race
- 10k randoms to keep TV down
Therefore the average TV in matches skews lower than it used to |
Ah well. If you'd all rather coach Grimsby than Barcelona what can we do, eh? |
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SideshowBob
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 15:32 |
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Just tag all new lame Twilight Vampire positionals as Megastars. Problem solved!
Only cool multibiting legacy Vampires allowed in majors! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 15:43 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 16:22 |
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This ruleset is not made for high TV so no wonder that, if the teams grow too much, they get broken.
While waiting for Re-Draft implementation, a TV cap to join a Major could improve a bit the things.
Something around 1500-1600. That way it would be impossible to have teams with many stat freaks and the teams would be developed enough to be interesting to watch, without being broken. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 17:05 |
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| koadah wrote: | Then it is another grind to build up. If there is no S2+ BBT I'm not seeing the incentive to do that.
...
Brawls & Majors may help but getting the games in before the next Major might be a challenge.
...
Unless there is a BBT for season 2+ teams it sounds like a load of miserable grinding.
...
Basically, without S2+ BBT it's seasons without a season.
...
So I'm not seeing the incentive to even create any [C] division teams right now. |
A team in its first season can grow to say, 1500k or more
Then you cut to 1350, and then in 2nd season grow to say, 1700k or more
This Dark Elf team got to 2115k in its first 15 games, for example
After each cut you're paying more in agent fees so you start seasons at a smaller TV, so your upper cap will diminish somewhat
I don't see what you mean by grind
It's not a grind, its just playing games at mid tv? which is what you later say you're interested in
Also don't see what you mean by BBT S2+
BBT is explicitly for new teams, it's not relevant for redrafted teams
I guess you just mean, you personally don't find this appealing. which is fine.
We'll have to see what affect it has on the meta, and the 'how it feels' aspect of the extra team management.
I suspect it'll be fine for some teams and just add a fun bit of flavour, and some teams (with saurus, bloaters etc as I mentioned) will find it rough
| koadah wrote: | Basically, the spirit of what made the old Ranked & Box divisions great for people like me seems to be mostly missing.
The new progression rules are part of that. For me, seasons are a massive part.
I liked playing at around 1600-1700 in the old box. |
You're talking there as if season redraft is currently in place in [C], but it isn't
So if some 'spirit' of the game has changed for you, it's not to do with seasons
MattDakka for example plays a LOT in [C] at 1400-1800 so that aspect of the game has not gone away
And even with seasons, that TV is well within reach |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 19:13 |
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Yes, if you want, playing at mid-high TV is possible, because Re-Draft has not been implemented yet. I try to keep my teams hovering at TV 1500 because at that TV it's still possible to find games in the Box quite easily and because the matches are still relatively balanced and varied (I've just checked, I'm activating 8 teams and their average TV is 1533, for the record).
I have few higher-than-1500-TV teams but they are there to act as lightning rod in case somebody monoactivates, I don't often expect to find games with those.
If you want, you can develop teams to 2000+ TV, the real problem is finding games. If you can find people to play with at TV 2000+ (Gamefinder, Leagues, friends etc.) then nothing stops you from playing at that TV, at least before Season Re-Draft.
With Re-Draft playing at 1400-1500 should still be viable.
It's not that bad, unless you want to develop players/teams for the sake of building. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 11, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 19:23 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: |
A team in its first season can grow to say, 1500k fairly easy
Then you cut to 1350, and then in 2nd season grow to say, 1700k or more - this Dark Elf team got to 2115k in its first 15 games, for example
After each cut you're paying more in agent fees so you start seasons at a smaller TV, so your upper cap will diminish somewhat
I don't see what you mean by grind
It's not a grind, its just playing games at mid tv?= |
Yes. That is fair enough. I wouldn't want to do the cut after the 2nd season though. The first cut probably wouldn't be so big.
I'd be more likely play if I could move my team to [L]eague after two seasons.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
Also don't see what you mean by BBT S2+
BBT is explicitly for new teams, it's not relevant for redrafted teams |
BBT allowing experienced teams has been mentioned. Who knows if it will ever happen. Downside I assume is that it may split the userbase again.
The BBT is an incentive to play games and to get people talking. Create a buzz.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
I guess you just mean, you personally don't find this appealing. which is fine. |
More importantly, people like me. I suspect that there is a fair sized intersection between those and the people who plug the tournaments, do the picks, the match reports etc. and help create the buzz.
The buzz that might encourage others to take part.
People say "you can do that stuff in the [L]eague division". Well, we do.
Where we came in was someone saying How is the group spirit in the competitive divisions?.
Of course it was a HPL coach :mrgeen:
| Sp00keh wrote: |
...
| koadah wrote: | Basically, the spirit of what made the old Ranked & Box divisions great for people like me seems to be mostly missing.
The new progression rules are part of that. For me, seasons are a massive part.
I liked playing at around 1600-1700 in the old box. |
You're talking as if season redraft is currently in place in [C], but it isn't
So if some 'spirit' of the game has changed for you, it's not to do with seasons
MattDakka for example plays a LOT in [C] at 1400-1800 so that aspect of the game has not gone away |
It's coming. You're right. If the new rules abolish seasons before they are implemented in [C] I'll be a little disappointed.
But they probably won't. So at least I won't have to rage when the reaper comes for my teams. 
Yeah, yeah. "Stay in the [L]eague division where you belong pixel hugger!"
The old divisions catered for a wider cross section of coaches I think. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 19:28 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 11, 2024 - 19:45 |
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Keeping the teams' growth in check is necessary for the Balance's Greater Good.
Imagine finding TV 2800 Vampires in the Box, it would be a nightmare. Consider that.
It's better to play less varied, but quite balanced teams around at TV 1500 than to play at TV 2000+ vs some monster teams or Rinse & Repeat Bowl at TV 1000. 
Speaking of the past: in the old Box big TV gap match-ups could happen. That was not fun at all. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 11, 2024; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 11, 2024 - 20:10 |
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