FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Feb 07, 2025 - 20:33

Yea we understand that, and we know you're not doing it for $$$
I don't object at all to what you've done. And I've got several 3rd party teams myself, brutefun, ugni, etc

The negativity isn't directed at you the enduser. mostly it's at the AI industry's theft of copyright material to build these tools
There's also the aspect of how it will impact creative jobs in the future that many are wary of

Zelmor

Joined: Sep 29, 2022

Posted: Feb 08, 2025 - 12:52

Regardless of whether you think these AI images are theft or not, they look garbage and if you like them you have bad taste. Pick up a pen, learn to draw. Pick up Blender. Learn to sculpt. You will get more satisfaction out of life that way. This here thing that OP posted? This is just noise I wish he didn't share. Dime a dozen.

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Feb 08, 2025 - 13:05

Zelmor wrote:

Regardless of whether you think these AI images are theft or not, they look garbage and if you like them you have bad taste. Pick up a pen, learn to draw. Pick up Blender. Learn to sculpt. You will get more satisfaction out of life that way. This here thing that OP posted? This is just noise I wish he didn't share. Dime a dozen.

This is just the beginning. AI will continue to improve and the detail level will improve. I plan to run the same images through the program or a similar program every 6 months to see the progress.

No problem if you don't like them. Professional sculpts are clearly better. Sculpting is not what brings me satisfaction it is painting and playing the games.

Even though stuff like Hero Clicks look just as good or better than what I paint, I continue to find enjoyment in the painting. I am sure there are others that feel the same.

Oh, and I will post more as the mood strikes me.

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Feb 08, 2025 - 16:52

Kondor wrote:

Zelmor wrote:

Regardless of whether you think these AI images are theft or not, they look garbage and if you like them you have bad taste. Pick up a pen, learn to draw. Pick up Blender. Learn to sculpt. You will get more satisfaction out of life that way. This here thing that OP posted? This is just noise I wish he didn't share. Dime a dozen.

This is just the beginning. AI will continue to improve and the detail level will improve. I plan to run the same images through the program or a similar program every 6 months to see the progress.

This has been said a lot but its not necessarily true (though it could be).

First, this is not just the beginning. AI has been in development for a long time. Machine learning has been a thing for many years. There have been major breakthroughs recently, but it isn't like we just discovered a new field and are just getting our hands into it.

Second, technology just doesn't work like this. People see a technology explode out of seemingly nowhere and then assume it will continue at that same rate of development forever. It usually doesn't. Often it ends up slowing down quite a bit as the gains become more and more marginal until some new paradigm shifting breakthrough happens. But that breakthrough could be decades from now for all we know.

Or it could be tomorrow. Technology is not a linear process, it has great surges forward, and long plateaus of minimal gains. Currently we are in a surge, and when that happens, its easy to feel like it will continue at that pace forever. But there is a solid chance that it won't. We just don't know.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 08, 2025 - 17:14

Garion wrote:

Anyway. I'm out... I despise AI stealing art. Nothing more to say.

Well, sure but a lot of writing is out of copyright. A lot of painters have been dead for hundreds of years.

Some people might offer "open source" work.
I guess the big companies might pay artists to create art especially for AI.

I don't know how it works though if someone later comes to you with a copyright claim from something that you created from AI.

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gumbi

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Feb 08, 2025 - 18:23

Wow - can you please post an article how you do this? debates aside it is awesome work.

The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Feb 09, 2025 - 05:10

Zelmor wrote:

Regardless of whether you think these AI images are theft or not, they look garbage and if you like them you have bad taste. Pick up a pen, learn to draw. Pick up Blender. Learn to sculpt. You will get more satisfaction out of life that way. This here thing that OP posted? This is just noise I wish he didn't share. Dime a dozen.

Most obnoxious post of 2025 thus far, imo. The OP played around with something digital, and thought he might share it, in case others were interested. Some were. No need to let out someone's inner art-snob with a comment like that.

Anyone thinking people should be able to make a real living from creating 'art' is about as far along the 'naive and immature' scale as it gets. Those same people probably think we should all have a Universal Basic Income to take care of us and our cats while we do whatever we want in life.

No. You should have a job that adds value to your society. Anything creative you do on your own time should give you, and you alone, enjoyment. The moment you put it on the internet.. best case scenario is it's gives enjoyment to, or gains appreciation from someone else. Maybe lots of others.. but it should be posted to be 'given away' freely. And if it is any good at all it's 100% going to be 'copied' 'saved' 'reused' and 'incorporated into the AI matrix' by anyone and everyone that wants to. That's reality. Just like needing a job to eat should be reality.

FUMBBL is an amazing example of programming 'art' being given away freely. 1000's of hours have been invested by the creator and his volunteers, and it's being 'given away' for others to enjoy. Almost nothing is asked in return. Basically only that we be civil to each other as we enjoy their 'donated time.'

A professional artist should be 1 in a million. Truly. No one should pay you a dime for your crappy music, homemade bracelets, or digital comic book art. Not a dime.

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Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Feb 09, 2025 - 05:40

The_Murker wrote:

Zelmor wrote:

Regardless of whether you think these AI images are theft or not, they look garbage and if you like them you have bad taste. Pick up a pen, learn to draw. Pick up Blender. Learn to sculpt. You will get more satisfaction out of life that way. This here thing that OP posted? This is just noise I wish he didn't share. Dime a dozen.

Most obnoxious post of 2025 thus far, imo. The OP played around with something digital, and thought he might share it, in case others were interested. Some were. No need to let out someone's inner art-snob with a comment like that.

Anyone thinking people should be able to make a real living from creating 'art' is about as far along the 'naive and immature' scale as it gets. Those same people probably think we should all have a Universal Basic Income to take care of us and our cats while we do whatever we want in life.

No. You should have a job that adds value to your society. Anything creative you do on your own time should give you, and you alone, enjoyment. The moment you put it on the internet.. best case scenario is it's gives enjoyment to, or gains appreciation from someone else. Maybe lots of others.. but it should be posted to be 'given away' freely. And if it is any good at all it's 100% going to be 'copied' 'saved' 'reused' and 'incorporated into the AI matrix' by anyone and everyone that wants to. That's reality. Just like needing a job to eat should be reality.

FUMBBL is an amazing example of programming 'art' being given away freely. 1000's of hours have been invested by the creator and his volunteers, and it's being 'given away' for others to enjoy. Almost nothing is asked in return. Basically only that we be civil to each other as we enjoy their 'donated time.'

A professional artist should be 1 in a million. Truly. No one should pay you a dime for your crappy music, homemade bracelets, or digital comic book art. Not a dime.

What a deeply unpleasant viewpoint you have. I am not an artist. I will never be an artist, I don't have the talent for it. I have a decently high paying job in the tech industry and benefit in no way personally from artists being fairly compensated for their work. So know that I am not speaking for myself when I say this: your viewpoint is incredibly bitter and only serves to make the world a worse place.

The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Feb 09, 2025 - 06:26

Can you explain what you mean? That just sounds like generic virtue-signalling.
"Artists good. Go art!"
What type of 'art' should a low or mid-level artist be compensated for? And how much? Do you have an idea on what someone should be compensated for? Or how? Someone makes a comic book and posts it online. Should OpenAI pay a random dude some money because he put his images on DiviantArt.com? How much? Can you flesh out your viewpoint a bit more?
What's 'bitter' about my comment? Makes the world worse how?

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Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Feb 09, 2025 - 10:25

Same comment as Drrek. Wow.

"Oscar Wilde quite rightly said, 'All art is useless'. And that may sound as if that means it's something not worth supporting. But if you actually think about it, the things that matter in life are useless. Love is useless. Wine is useless. Art is the love and wine of life. It is the extra, without which life is not worth living."
- Stephen Fry

I also work in tech and have no expectations at all that I'll make any money off art
But I enjoy photography, I enjoy painting minis, I've posted some in blogs

If I publish images onto the web, it's for the limited purpose of sharing with you other nerds that share the same hobby
I automatically own the copyright
I don't consent to them being scraped and infringed
The AI companies view anything they can access on the internet as free for them to do whatever they want with, which is legally .. dubious

moph

Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Posted: Feb 09, 2025 - 15:45

The_Murker wrote:

What type of 'art' should a low or mid-level artist be compensated for? And how much? Do you have an idea on what someone should be compensated for? Or how? Someone makes a comic book and posts it online. Should OpenAI pay a random dude some money because he put his images on DiviantArt.com? How much?

The value of something is evaluated by supply and demand.
And for this it makes no difference whether it is a potato or a drawing.
And a free society has laws that protect people to do these trades/ business. And if the AI models need data to be build there seems to be a demand. Both parties can negotiate it's not like there is a fixed answer to your questions. But not even negotiating because you can get away with just taking things is wrong. And to be clear this does not only concern the work of low and mid level artists but also high and top tier.

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Feb 10, 2025 - 06:54

The_Murker wrote:

Can you explain what you mean? That just sounds like generic virtue-signalling.
"Artists good. Go art!"
What type of 'art' should a low or mid-level artist be compensated for? And how much? Do you have an idea on what someone should be compensated for? Or how? Someone makes a comic book and posts it online. Should OpenAI pay a random dude some money because he put his images on DiviantArt.com? How much? Can you flesh out your viewpoint a bit more?
What's 'bitter' about my comment? Makes the world worse how?

How much should OpenAI be forced to pay to use the artist's (notably copyrighted by merely having created it) material for commercial purposes (and yes, it is commercial purposes, because they are using it to develop a commercial product) you ask?

Very simply, whatever the artist demands they pay. If OpenAI does not want to pay those costs, they are free to not use the art, and are free to find other artists who will accept what they consider a more reasonable price. But that art is owned, legally and morally by that person who created it. It is their work. If you want to use it to make money, that means you have their permission first.

You say that artists shouldn't be paid for their work, work I may add clearly has commercial value because people are willing to steal it to make money, and you ask me why that opinion is bitter? If you can't see why, I suggest you do a little introspection.

Gridironman

Joined: Mar 18, 2022

Posted: Feb 10, 2025 - 07:23

AI disgusts me for the reasons that Sp00keh detailed, but I would be a fool not to use AI if I ran a business sadly. Which means I cannot legitimately fault a business for using AI because the excess funds could go to research and development, talent retention, and really whatever the owner or CEO/shareholders deem worthy. I do use AI to speed things up personally, but I do feel that it is a misanthropic technology ultimately.

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The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Feb 10, 2025 - 19:36

AI "stole other people's creative production without pay or even credit given."

"AI disgusts me.."

It all just sounds like generic virtue-signalling, and the parroting of MSM talking points, which is fine, until it crosses the line that causes the 'virtuous' to start dumping on other specific individuals.. what they are saying, what they believe, what they like, or what they are doing in their own free time. The world has real problems, and a computer learning to draw from analyzing 'unprotected' images on the internet isn't one of them.

Most of you said they had no problem with the OP's sharing of his project or personal, non-profit use of AI. I think that's a good way to start your virtuous rant about the injustice of AI. I'm not really even saying it's 'wrong' to think artists should be compensated for their work, I just think it's terribly naive to think you can put your personal art online for whatever reason and expect people or companies to 'respect your artistic rights.' Not 'wrong'.. just naive. I wasn't very clear on that point, perhaps.

Go on, try and make a living from art. Good luck to you. I suggest you have rich parents or a working spouse to support you before you start your likely failing endeavor to support yourself by creating extremely non-essential products. Hopefully the economy stays good enough, long enough, to value your 'product.'

My issue.. I think Zelmor crossed that line that I hate to see crossed, when he suggested The OP has bad taste, should learn to draw, and wished he hadn't shared what he shared. So virtuous in his beliefs he's willing to dump on someone else.

Like the idiot Canadians booing women and children singing the American national anthem at cross-border sporting events. The media told them 'Trump and Tariffs BAD!" so the lemmings are willing to offend the American athletes playing on their Canadian teams by booing and entire nation of 350 million people. Just.. sad, how people are so easily manipulated into saying or doing crummy things to each other because the news or the internet wants them to.

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Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Feb 10, 2025 - 20:05

The_Murker wrote:

Go on, try and make a living from art. Good luck to you. I suggest you have rich parents or a working spouse to support you before you start your likely failing endeavor to support yourself by creating extremely non-essential products. Hopefully the economy stays good enough, long enough, to value your 'product.'
to.

Good job pointing out that how its problematic that people who are richer are given a better chance at succeeding in these fields and less likely to be taken advantage of. What's strange is you don't seem to think that's a problem.

Good job by the way completely sidestepping and not addressing that these companies had no right to use artists' work without their permission. Regardless of how you value art or not, that work is clearly their intellectual property that they have sole custody over.

But I can tell by your veer into politics that you are also an unpleasant person who isn't really worth talking to further. You hide behind the adjective of "naive" to spout your distaste in others because, as I've said before, you are bitter. Bitter that the world isn't perfect and fighting against anyone who would want it to be better because they are "naive."

If wanting to make the world a better place is "naive," then I am glad to be so. Sounds like a much better way to live anyway.

And if you think you aren't manipulated by the news or internet as you condemn an entire nation's population for being displeased at a different country's political choices that affect them, then your lack of self-awareness is astounding.