Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Feb 11, 2025 - 10:26 |
 
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Agree again with Drrek. I might not have been as blunt, but he's also not wrong 
One of the fundamentals that The_Murker's position seems to be taking: "You should have a job that adds value to your society"
Hahah. This ties a person's value to their job? If I lose my job, I am no longer valued as a person?
The other mistake in there is mixing up 'society' and 'economy'
They're separate things, believe it or not
Economy is what pays the bills. Society is larger than that, it includes economy but also law, culture, and is just generally the shared experience of everyone living together
"How a society treats its most vulnerable is always the measure of its humanity."
People can contribute to society without it contributing to the economy
An example is someone volunteering, teaching pottery class at the old folks home, or whatever
This has no economic value, but it enriches people's lives and is very much worthwhile
But it sounds like in Murker-world this wouldn't happen? which is a shame. that society would be poorer for it |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Feb 11, 2025 - 21:17 |
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Sure, you can tell me what my point is, and then argue against that, if it makes it easier for you, in true straw-man fashion. A accompanying word-salad would be an appropriate side dish.
Or you could try and argue against what I actually say my point is.
No one is saying a world without art is better than a world with art. No one is arguing someone without a job has no value.
Try and justify why Zelmor's opinion on AI makes it appropriate for him to say someone else has bad taste, and that he wishes he wouldn't have shared his original post. I think being that obnoxious and condescending, especially in the matter of taste, warranted a response, so I gave it. I also included how generic all of your group's anti-AI opinions sounded, as if you were all just repeating virtuous sounding things you had heard on the internet. |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Feb 11, 2025 - 21:43 |
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I don't know. I hear the complaints of AI infringing on copy right without paying the original artist. But isn't that exactly what happens over and over and it has been ignored or accepted almost universally? To me, the complaints sound like little more than lip service.
Hasn't Fan Art always done that? What is D&D except an adaptation of Tolkien and others that came before. GW Necrons are imitation Terminators. Tyranids imitations of the Bugs from Starship Troopers. So many artists build and adapt from things they have seen. AI is a tool that enables the less gifted to produce a product that fits their own desires.
Does it matter if it is a big business, a small one, or an individual adapting previous works for their own use? |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Feb 11, 2025 - 22:02 |
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| Kondor wrote: | I don't know. I hear the complaints of AI infringing on copy right without paying the original artist. But isn't that exactly what happens over and over and it has been ignored or accepted almost universally? To me, the complaints sound like little more than lip service.
Hasn't Fan Art always done that? What is D&D except an adaptation of Tolkien and others that came before. GW Necrons are imitation Terminators. Tyranids imitations of the Bugs from Starship Troopers. So many artists build and adapt from things they have seen. AI is a tool that enables the less gifted to produce a product that fits their own desires.
Does it matter if it is a big business, a small one, or an individual adapting previous works for their own use? |
Fan art, notably, cannot be monetized without the permission of the owner of the intellectual property.
When humans imitate the work of other humans as they create their own creative works, they are still required to do something with it to make it their own. If you wholesale just copy something without putting any of your own twist on it, you will be committing copyright infringement.
AI, at least the kind we have now, cannot innovate by definition. It is explicitly copying. |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Feb 11, 2025 - 22:33 |
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| Drrek wrote: | | Kondor wrote: | I don't know. I hear the complaints of AI infringing on copy right without paying the original artist. But isn't that exactly what happens over and over and it has been ignored or accepted almost universally? To me, the complaints sound like little more than lip service.
Hasn't Fan Art always done that? What is D&D except an adaptation of Tolkien and others that came before. GW Necrons are imitation Terminators. Tyranids imitations of the Bugs from Starship Troopers. So many artists build and adapt from things they have seen. AI is a tool that enables the less gifted to produce a product that fits their own desires.
Does it matter if it is a big business, a small one, or an individual adapting previous works for their own use? |
Fan art, notably, cannot be monetized without the permission of the owner of the intellectual property.
When humans imitate the work of other humans as they create their own creative works, they are still required to do something with it to make it their own. If you wholesale just copy something without putting any of your own twist on it, you will be committing copyright infringement.
AI, at least the kind we have now, cannot innovate by definition. It is explicitly copying. |
To me that is splitting hairs. How much "Fan Art" is sold on Etsy or other sites? That isn't even criticized much any more.
Also, the AI sure seems to be more than a pure copy to me. There is a twist on it.
Put a prompt like "Western style Wolverine riding a pterodactyl over a Martian landscape." It will pop out something that is more than a copy of what you can find elsewhere. Yes. I get it. You have an aggregate of parts being pulled together for one image. It sure sounds like a collage to me.
But in any case, to me, this AI "wholesale copy" is not much different than someone putting an artistic spin on someone else's idea. Hence me pointing to the similarities between Tyranids and the Bugs from Starship Troopers.
In fact, there you go in less than 2 minutes. Something you won't find anywhere else. Much more than a copy and paste.
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Feb 11, 2025 - 22:45 |
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First, why are we giving billion dollar companies more rights than your average artist? Yes, people sell copyrighted work on Etsy without owners permission, and this is illegal, and if the company that owned that work wanted to, they could seek restitution against them.
Second, the AI puts no creativity into making that new image, into making it transformative. The closest thing to doing that is you with the prompt. An artist who put work into making that image you spawned would actually have to put effort and thought into it, not just having an algorithm collage it together. Even an artist straight up collaging it together would take more creative thought.
And, funny enough, that exact image you created would be subject to a copyright claim by Marvel if you sold it for a profit. It contains their copyrighted character. So again, why are we offering billion dollar companies more rights than to the average person? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 12, 2025 - 09:29 |
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| Kondor wrote: |
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This image is pretty horrid. There are inconsistencies with light sources, his claws are coming out of random places, belt buckles round the shoulder blending into nothing, deformed 3 finger hands, weird top lip. And there's something so soulless and synthetic about it... |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 12, 2025 - 11:21 |
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| Garion wrote: |
This image is pretty horrid. There are inconsistencies with light sources, his claws are coming out of random places, belt buckles round the shoulder blending into nothing, deformed 3 finger hands, weird top lip. And there's something so soulless and synthetic about it... |
But it is way better than most people could come up with on their own.
League/team pages are unlikely to be worth paying an artist for. If you can get an artist to do it for free then lucky you.
Sure, artists should be paid for their work. They should have the right to have their work removed from the models.
I don't know how hard it is to get scumbag companies to do that. Especially as they are accusing each other of stealing their models. 
I suppose they could pay artists to generate content especially for them. Certainly, some struggling, scab artists would do it for them.
It would take longer and and be more expensive than just chucking in stolen stuff.
But there must be plenty of out of copyright work around and copyright works differently in different countries.
So, if you use it are you going to get sued?
You may want to consult a lawyer in your own state/country.  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 12, 2025 - 11:38 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Garion wrote: |
This image is pretty horrid. There are inconsistencies with light sources, his claws are coming out of random places, belt buckles round the shoulder blending into nothing, deformed 3 finger hands, weird top lip. And there's something so soulless and synthetic about it... |
But it is way better than most people could come up with on their own.
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Yeah I'm not saying AI doesn't have some uses, and using it for Fun as the OP is... fair enough. I just dislike that AI steals existing works, not my cup of tea, but to each their own.
In short - I dislike the impact it is already having on corporations, putting average workers out of work replacing them with chat bots and data scraping bots.. and no the savings are not passed on to consumers or the wages of the remaining employees...
I dislike that the few people that were able to forge a modest living 3d sculpting and creating art etc... are losing work in a market place where more and more jobs are vanishing due to automation and machine learning...
I certainly wont pay to use any open AI...
Anyway... |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 12, 2025 - 12:36 |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Feb 12, 2025 - 12:47 |
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| koadah wrote: | Machines putting people out of work isn't a new thing.
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at this scale it is... and this is just the begining. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 12, 2025 - 13:36 |
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| Garion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | Machines putting people out of work isn't a new thing.
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at this scale it is... and this is just the begining. |
I don't know the scale of it but it was always coming.
They've been writing sci-fi stories about it ever since there were sci-fi stories.
How many people have been laid off, being replaced by software built by people playing on this site?
If it is not the machines, it is people from developing countries doing the work.
It makes sense to consider whether your job could be done by machines or foreign 8 year olds making 2 dollars a month.
Might want to think about doing something else.
Might be worth getting into this AI thing.  |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Feb 12, 2025 - 15:01 |
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I'm posting my 'original Jopotzuki' here, so that AI has 25% more places to scrape it from. More AI should look like this. If Elon's bid is successful, maybe Jopotzuki gets a lambo one day. Fingers crossed!
Aren't benevolent dictators just the best leaders? (It's their kids you have to worry about) |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Feb 12, 2025 - 15:14 |
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To be clear, people using AI to do things like make silly team logos that they never would have paid for is exactly what AI should have been used for.
My beef entirely is with the companies that used countless artists' work without their permission to develop their commercial product. |
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