MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Feb 16, 2025 - 13:25 |
 
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I'm forced to play vs minmaxed teams with this ruleset, so I have to minmax myself to stand a chance (In CRP I hated Cpomb but I developed Cpombers myself to fight fire with fire), although in this edition I have not yet played my Norse with 1 rr + leader, while I faced a Norse team with 1 rr + leader. That's heavy minmaxing. An Amazon team didn't even have an Apo, only Linewomen and Blockers. I don't use that approach. That's another example of heavy minmaxing. I can minmax, but there are people around here doing it at a higher level.
What I'd really like to do is moving away from low TV zone (the typical minmaxing zone) and play at mid-TV zone (1300-1500, without freaks), without being forced to get back and being ambushed by minmaxed teams.
Before Re-Draft that was possible. Now it's harder, almost impossible, because most games are at low TV. Even if I get to TV 1300 (I have some teams at that TV) I don't find games with them.
I suggested a more refined Box pairing system using number of Season games played, in 2 brackets (they could be 3, to improve it further).
With that, a team with 14 games would have a lower chance to be paired with a team with 1 game, it would be an improvement, in my opinion. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Feb 16, 2025 - 15:44 |
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A valk like that requires 116 SPP to build, and it earnt 4.16spp per game, so could be built in ~28 games
Changing seasons isn't going to make the nasty valks go away and leave you alone, sorry
I think the nature of redraft means teams will look more and more like that team, as well.
It'll be: linemen get churned each season, rerolls get dropped to trim under the cap, and only a handful of good players get kept for multiple seasons |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 16, 2025 - 16:52 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | A valk like that requires 116 SPP to build, and it earnt 4.16spp per game, so could be built in ~28 games
Changing seasons isn't going to make the nasty valks go away and leave you alone, sorry |
Yes, but:
1) it would make a bit harder to build such a player;
2) it would trim the rest of the team more, because the Re-Draft would happen a bit more often.
Still a bit better than every 15 games.
About the SPPs earned per game: 4 MVPs in 32 games are above average. |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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Goodness.
I'm cleaning out a fair bit of personal attack stuff on this thread. Please stay on topic and not let it devolve into bickering. This is an interesting topic and I'm interested too.
Best Regards,
Kryten |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Feb 17, 2025 - 10:50 |
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I think this problem is a bit like a waterbed: you push one problem down and it goes up elsewhere instead. If Norse and Amazons benefit the most from 15 games seasons, some other team will be the one to profit from shorter or longer seasons. Judging by the RRR win rates, we know Undead will profit greatly if every team stays in its rookie form. at 12 games it will be another team, and at 18 games I'm sure a new dynamic will come up. Minmaxing will always be possible, especially since the game is designed to be unbalanced and teams that benefit at various degrees from having an X amount of skills added (or money). Which is one why to saying that the only thing that will change is that a different team comes out on top, so why not simply stay aligned with the BBT cycle of 15 games? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 17, 2025 - 13:39 |
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Ok, but why we have Re-Draft if it doesn't trim the freaks and the players exploiting the random G and S skills?
Since the game is designed to be unbalanced, we could have just played without Re-Draft.
It would have been still unbalanced but there would have been way more racial variety.
Re-Draft is an official rule but it's supposed to be used in private leagues, as far as I know. It clearly fails big time when used in a perpetual league, as we experienced.
That said, if we have to eat this 15-game Season Re-Draft soup, what about pairing teams taking into account the stat boosts and the the earned skills more accurately?
The root of minmaxing lies in the number of skills and stat boosts a team manages to squeeze into a low TV.
If both TV and number of earned skills and stat boosts are taken into account to pair the teams, the hidden minmax value is not anymore an unfair advantage.
There could be another TV, let's call it: "MM TV" or "Box TV", more accurate, used to pair the teams.
Stacked stat boosts could be priced more than just +40 TV, in case of +2 MA, for example. We all know that +2 MA should cost more than just 40 TV. The virtual "Box TV" could price +2 MA 60 TV, for example.
The cost of Secondary skills could be another factor.
For example, price the random S skills on players without S access at their normal 40 price, instead of the 20 discounted price, just for purpose of TVMM pairings. Randomizing S skills would still have the benefit of getting them quicker and would make the players cheaper to redraft.
For purpose of calculating the Re-Draft players' costs use the normal TV, instead. So, a player without S access who got a random S skill would pay it 20 TV, not 40 TV, when redrafting.
Official rules would not be touched and the Box pairings would be more accurate (countering the minmax exploit). |
Last edited by MattDakka on Feb 17, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Zelmor
Joined: Sep 29, 2022
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Feb 17, 2025 - 14:13 |
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BBT is 15 games, so it is unlikely that seasons will be shorter than that. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 17, 2025 - 14:14 |
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Ok, I have understood that. I suggested a way to keep the 15-game Season but make Box pairings more accurate. |
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CrisisChris
Joined: Dec 11, 2023
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Feb 17, 2025 - 14:24 |
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| Zelmor wrote: | | BBT is 15 games, so it is unlikely that seasons will be shorter than that. |
| Christer wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | I suspect that seasons are set at 15 games because of the Trophy. |
For the record, it's the other way around: The trophy is 15 games because seasons were chosen to be 15 games long. |
Just to prevent any wrong conclusions based on missed information.  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 17, 2025 - 14:34 |
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The Trophy looks like a sort of untouchable God, by the way.
We should consider that the Trophy was made for coach, and not coach for the Trophy, to paraphrase Mark. 
Not suggesting to remove Trophy, just, I don't think that a 12-game Season would spoil the Trophy.
Personally, I don't care about Trophy at all, just pointing out that 3 games would not change a lot the Trophy experience (probably it's less frustrating to play a tier 3 team just for 12 games, instead of 15). Instead of playing 15 games with 4 races, 12 games with 5 races. Still 60 games.
That said, I'm interested in countering the minmax exploit in the Box, first and foremost. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 17, 2025 - 14:56 |
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Though, I think that with so many people playing, 12 games would have too many bunched at the top of the racial standings. 15 games thins them out a little more and is not "too many".
| MattBakka wrote: | | That said, I'm interested in countering the minmax exploit in the Box, first and foremost. |
Min/max is integral to the way that seasons will work with the Box. Lean into it.
As had been said. Changing the parameters just changes which teams have the advantage. |
_________________
NO seasons! - Old style skill progression! - Secret League - All Stars 20th Anniversary Bowl - 12th March! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 17, 2025 - 15:15 |
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Not if you price the discounted skills the TV they are really worth.
Why Norse minmax? Because they can afford to randomize S and G skills at half price on Linemen.
Price G and S skill full price (for pairing purpose) and the Norse teams will face teams with a higher TV than they face now. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Feb 17, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Feb 17, 2025 - 15:18 |
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If you want to stop people from minmaxing, you're going to have to change human nature. Good luck with that one.
Regardless of what season length you set, what redraft limit there is, there will always be races that benefit or are hurt more by it. There will always be the most efficient ways to build a team, especially in a TV-based match making system. On that note, I, personally, would have preferred if the match making was based on number of games played (within season, and protection of new teams not facing teams on season 2+ is still good) above TV, like how leagues generally match make. Especially now that we are running on seasons. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 17, 2025 - 15:19 |
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I guess you don't read my posts or I fail to explain simple concepts.
The minmax comes from Norse and Amazon teams spamming G and S skills at half price. Do you understand that?
If you make, for TVMM, pay the G and S skills the right price the minmax factor gets removed.
About pairing on numbers of games played: it can't work in a perpetual league with such few people playing.
It's not a site with thousands of people.
Also, there is no necessary correlation between numbers of games played and effective strength of a team. |
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Zelmor
Joined: Sep 29, 2022
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Feb 17, 2025 - 15:48 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Ok, I have understood that. I suggested a way to keep the 15-game Season but make Box pairings more accurate. |
That would spit matchmaking into smaller pools, ending up in fewer games played. I am against this. I'd rather just play and face whatever comes my way. Life is like that, too. In a round robin league, this is handled better. But this is not a round robin league.
I also feel that your problem is not season length, you just assume that is the problem. Your problem are Amazons and Norse. You keep asking for changes to the drafting system that fit your niche 'right way to play for me' desires. It's not the draft you have a problem with. It's that Norse and Amazon are broken and should be redesigned. Write letters to GW, maybe you are still in time for next edition.
| Code: | | Games Workshop Group PLC, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS, United Kingdom. |
The changes you proposed historically do not remedy the situation (again, two cheap and strong teams), and only negatively affect the other rosters who are not broken like those two teams are. They are not well thought through and were not made with the greater picture in mind. You do not see the forest from the tree, so to say.
My final position is that 15 game seasons are fine. Redraft should be 1250k. Complaints should be collected in a mason jar for 6 months before being posted online. Some time to reflect is always beneficial. |
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