MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 18:45 |
 
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| koadah wrote: |
You are moaning because you want to be able to play a lot of games and get them quickly.
It that is important to you, you're gonna have to compromise. |
Actually, post Re-Draft implementation I find games more easily, not moaning about finding games quickly (while not finding games was an issue before Re-Draft). What is important to me is not facing teams at the same TV of mine but with way more earned skills. The games I played around TV 1300 vs teams without freaks/minmaxed teams were quite enjoyable to play.
| koadah wrote: |
Weren't you the guy telling us it was going to be 98% dwarves?  |
I don't remember, honestly, but Dwarfs are good in this ruleset.
| Sp00keh wrote: |
This is the central point for you isn't it
You're mad that some teams have some great players. You think they "shouldn't exist" or whatever. But they can exist, and so they do. You can't re-write the rulebook, so you're stuck with them
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I don't say that teams with great players should not exist (although Re-Draft should trim them, eventually), but they should not exist at a very low TV, facing teams without great players and/or lots of skills spread on their linemen.
And this not because these teams require a brilliant and careful management, but because they can easily exploit the ruleset and minmax. Basically Norse and Amazons teams are almost minmaxed out of the box, if you don't take some of the positionals.
| Zlefin wrote: | how reliable is your evidence that they in fact do?
right now it feels like redrafts are quite new, so many of the teams would've had a first power redraft, it'll take some time for things to normalize properly.
Also it really doesn't take much to have a few great players and a few discounted linos with good randoms; quite a lot of teams can do so. And lower game count would simply make the dominance of early game teams stronger, not weaker I'd suspect; so I stand by the point: you're forcing a conclusion too early instead of waitin gto observe in detail. |
I played already at least 6 games vs teams like the ones I described (mostly Norse and 1 Amazon team). Even considering the power Re-Draft, it's absolutely possible to keep on doing that kind of minmaxing.
Sure, even other teams can randomize G skills on Linemen, but Norse and Amazons can do that better.
Also, starting Block on Norse Linemen helps them to earn 2 SPPs through Casualties, then no matter who gets the random MVP, you can already randomize a Strength skill.
Doing that with Human Linemen, for example, is harder, because they don't start with Block and that slows down the SPPs-earning process.
In case you don't like it, nice, a Norse Lineman costs only 50k, you can even fire him and try again, keeping the TV low in the process. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 19:20 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
You are moaning because you want to be able to play a lot of games and get them quickly.
It that is important to you, you're gonna have to compromise. |
Actually, post Re-Draft implementation I find games more easily, not moaning about finding games quickly (while not finding games was an issue before Re-Draft). What is important to me is not facing teams at the same TV of mine but with way more earned skills. The games I played around TV 1300 vs teams without freaks/minmaxed teams were quite enjoyable to play. |
Ah. So you are finding games more quickly?
Because more teams are squashed into the same range?
But you don't like some of those teams?
Compromise?
Reduce the number of games and you make it even harsher on "team builders". If there are any left.
Lose more of those and you might start to see fewer games again..
But maybe you won't notice because teams are squeezed into an even smaller range again.
Maybe that is when dwarves will take over the world and you'll have been right all along. |
_________________
NO seasons! - Old style skill progression! - Secret League - All Stars 20th Anniversary Bowl - 12th March! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 19:32 |
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There are no team builders, at the moment (according to my Box experience post-Re-Draft). There are minmaxers and people with some legacy freaks or very developed players at a higher TV (around 1300-1400), but there is no such thing as "team building" for the sake of it (or I have not encountered team builders, so far).
For the record, I played 52 Box games after Re-Draft implementation (just checked).
My idea of a more accurate TV calculation wouldn't change a lot the "compromise", as you call it.
Games would still be easy to find. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 19:55 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | There are no team builders, at the moment (according to my Box experience post-Re-Draft). There are minmaxers and people with some legacy freaks or very developed players at a higher TV (around 1300-1400), but there is no such thing as "team building" for the sake of it (or I have not encountered team builders, so far). |
I thought that there might still be some builders who might build a team for two seasons, play a Major then cry and quit [C] forever due to having to cut back to 1350. 
| MattDakka wrote: |
For the record, I played 52 Box games after Re-Draft implementation (just checked). |
Some might not have played that many so haven't outed themselves yet. 
| MattDakka wrote: |
My idea of a more accurate TV calculation wouldn't change a lot the "compromise", as you call it.
Games would still be easy to find. |
I don't think that anyone is considering that unless you intend to build it yourself.
From time to time Christer mentions that the code is up on GetHub somewhere. |
_________________
NO seasons! - Old style skill progression! - Secret League - All Stars 20th Anniversary Bowl - 12th March! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 19:58 |
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| koadah wrote: |
I thought that there might still be some builders who might build a team for two seasons, play a Major then cry and quit [C] forever due to having to cut back to 1350. |
Today I played vs this team, now that I think of it:
https://fumbbl.com/t/1163914
Could that be considered "team building", by your criteria?
Its TV is very high for the current meta.
Now TV 1300 feels like TV 1500 before Re-Draft implementation.
(disclaimer: no derogatory intent about that team) |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 17, 2025 - 20:08 |
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TheArtemisBlack
Joined: Aug 28, 2022
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 19:38 |
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Can I ask if the reason you seem so worked up about this issue is that it's affecting your games that you are primarily playing to gain CR?
Have you considered stopping doing that?
We could have a whole other discussion about CR being silly, but you have twice handwaved away BBT.
Play that instead? It's easily the most competitive thing on Fumbbl, you could accomplish something other people pay attention to?
And it would have the added bonus of never caring about redraft again. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 19:43 |
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The name of this edition is: "Blood Bowl Second Season <----edit".
BBT is about Season 1 teams only, I'm not interested in playing it. It's boring and doesn't logically fit the name of the edition.
Also, in BBT the top tier 1 teams are still top tier 1 teams. Norse and Amazons are still OP in BBT.
Moreover, 15 games per team are too many. If you get a bad start with a team, especially a tier 2 or 3, you are forced to play many games in agony mode.
BBT has too many drawbacks for my taste.
Last, but not least, BBT made me waste lot of time due to people playing it rather than activating in the Box teams with more than 15 games.
Another good reason not to play it.
The new plan to counter minmaxed teams is activating only mid TV teams, like I did today:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4607188
I don't like to play with TV gaps but I don't want to be ambushed by minmaxed teams exploiting in a vulgar way a bad rule made for private leagues and crudely used to keep in check a perpetual one. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Feb 18, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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TheArtemisBlack
Joined: Aug 28, 2022
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 19:55 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | The name of this edition is: "Blood Bowl Second Season".
BBT is about Season 1 teams only, I'm not interested in playing it. It's boring and doesn't logically fit the name of the edition. |
Is this part one of those non-English language jokes that sometimes don't translate?
| MattDakka wrote: | Also, in BBT the top tier 1 teams are still top tier 1 teams. Norse and Amazons are still OP in BBT.
Moreover, 15 games per team are too many.
BBT has too many drawbacks for my taste.
Last, but not least, BBT made me waste lot of time due to people playing it rather than activating in the Box teams with more than 15 games.
Another good reason not to play it.
The new plan to counter minmaxed teams is activating only mid TV teams. I don't like to play with TV gaps but I don't want to be ambushed by minmaxed teams. |
*shrug* Ok, I tried.
I guess I just don't understand how you aren't bored playing Fumbbl the way you do.
You're playing the same small subset pool of people over and over again, for no real reason with no real goal.
You don't seem like a bad player, why not play something where the results matter? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 19:59 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 20:01 |
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Not a joke, it's the name of this edition: Blood Bowl Second Season <--edit. That suggests to me that it's about playing teams more than just for 1 Season. BBT teams are played for 1 Season. They don't match the name of the edition and this is a huge logical inconsistency in my book. Not saying you should agree with my opinion, but this is just how I see it.
I have goals: for example, I try to be top 1 in the Box with the races I play.
After the game I linked I became top 1 with Undead in the Box (and Overall too).
About the small subset of people: I activate in the Box, I can't pick my opponents.
It happens that I face the same people, because most of the users play in the Trophy.
Not my fault.
Well, it's not a funny ruleset, but between playing over and over again starting teams and over and over again teams with a little development, I prefer the latter. Failing a pick up just because my Ghoul doesn't have Sure Hands yet it's a thing I find super frustrating. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Feb 18, 2025; edited 3 times in total |
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TheArtemisBlack
Joined: Aug 28, 2022
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 20:02 |
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| koadah wrote: | | TheArtemisBlack wrote: |
You don't seem like a bad player, why not play something where the results matter? |
A season 2+ BBT might help.
But people play for different reasons as you've said in the past. |
Absolutely, and if he was just playing for fun I wouldn't even have commented.
But he seems to be playing something that only he thinks is a contest, and taking it seriously enough to be suggesting rules changes and arguing strongly about it 
Figured I'd try and promote the best competition on the site, never know! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 20:04 |
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For me BBT should not exist at all.
IRONDWARF Trophy is more appealing to me, if we want to talk about competitions.
The simple fact that you can use Season 2+ teams makes it appealing to me.
Horses for courses, if you like BBT, good, I'm not saying you should not play it.
I explained in a logical way and with reasons why I don't like it, since you asked.
If I had to make a competition, I would reward every month the top 1 coach in the Box with most different races, with teams played for 16+ games (no team cycling allowed).
Anyway, my thread is about Season 2+ teams, I didn't talk about BBT teams.
That was my context, just to be clear.
About arguing strongly: it's often more fun than playing games vs minmaxed Season 2+ teams.  |
Last edited by MattDakka on Feb 18, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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TheArtemisBlack
Joined: Aug 28, 2022
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 20:09 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Not a joke, it's the name of this edition: Blood Bowl Second Edition. That suggests to me that it's about playing teams more than just for 1 Season. BBT teams are played for 1 Season. They don't match the name of the edition and this is a huge logical inconsistency in my book. Not saying you should agree with my opinion, but this is just how I see it. |
I mean it's just called that because the thing you actually wrote, second 'edition' doesn't make sense when there was already a second edition.
| MattDakka wrote: | I have goals: for example, I try to be top 1 in the Box with the races I play.
After the game I linked I became top 1 with Undead in the Box (and Overall too). |
You mean in CR? Wouldn't you feel more of an accomplishment if you did that playing a less silly version of BB than the one you've been playing for, it seems, years?
With 150 game teams with the same kind of souped-up ball carriers or whatever you are currently complaining about?
It's not quite as bad as the guy who just challenges rookies all day but it's still gaming the system.
Nobody is taking the CR of teams played like that seriously so it seems like a pointless goal.
| MattDakka wrote: | About the small subset of people: I activate in the Box, I can't pick my opponents.
It happens that I face the same people, because most of the users play in the Trophy.
Not my fault. |
It's not your fault, but you 'are' limiting your pool of opponents by mostly spinning season 2+ (or before this change, 15+ game) teams.
You've played 1 dude 200 times and you're spinning in peak hours
Anyway, I was just asking, here seemed as good a place as any. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2025 - 20:15 |
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| TheArtemisBlack wrote: | | It's not quite as bad as the guy who just challenges rookies all day but it's still gaming the system. |
You didn't pay attention. He games the system only because others do. He's not the bad guy, they are. |
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