chaoshugs_
Joined: Jan 22, 2022
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 Posted:
Mar 14, 2025 - 17:07 |
 
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Not sure if this has been brought up before but based off anecdotal experience of 2 games, seems there is a bit of a flaw in the matching algorithm now seasons have been introduced...
Today my orcs 2 games into second season at 1220 TV faced an uber powerful 5 rr vampire team at 1700 TV.
I didn't even mean to join BB at this time in the morning but I managed to entertain it for 1 turn before realising at was a waste of my time to even try, so I conceded and paid a price of losing some decent players. Not my finest moment but it happened.
I saw the same thing happened to a dwarf coach vs the same vampire team later in the day. They at least did try, but the result was inevitable.
I guess it might iron itself out as those teams go beyond s2 or even s3 but seems the games played % above TV factor needs adjusting somehow given that soon after rebuy you are fairly slim on players and/or rerolls vs those that have had a few more games to rebuild fully (especially those with cheaper linemen!). |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 14, 2025 - 17:27 |
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I suggested to use brackets for Season 2+ teams' pairing:
Something like:
- teams with 0-4 games paired with teams with 0-4 games;
- teams with 5-9 games paired with teams with 5-9 games;
- teams with 10-14 games paired with teams with 10-14 games;
or less granular, to make Box draws more likely:
- teams with 0-7 games paired with teams with 0-7 games;
- teams with 8-14 games paired with teams with 8-14 games.
Also, it could help to reduce the Seasons from 15 games to 12 or even 10 games. Developed ball carriers are still quite common, even on teams created after Re-Draft implementation. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Mar 14, 2025 - 19:09 |
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| chaoshugs_ wrote: | Not sure if this has been brought up before but based off anecdotal experience of 2 games, seems there is a bit of a flaw in the matching algorithm now seasons have been introduced...
Today my orcs 2 games into second season at 1220 TV faced an uber powerful 5 rr vampire team at 1700 TV.
I didn't even mean to join BB at this time in the morning but I managed to entertain it for 1 turn before realising at was a waste of my time to even try, so I conceded and paid a price of losing some decent players. Not my finest moment but it happened.
I saw the same thing happened to a dwarf coach vs the same vampire team later in the day. They at least did try, but the result was inevitable.
I guess it might iron itself out as those teams go beyond s2 or even s3 but seems the games played % above TV factor needs adjusting somehow given that soon after rebuy you are fairly slim on players and/or rerolls vs those that have had a few more games to rebuild fully (especially those with cheaper linemen!). |
After the first season you can run into some nasty teams in the Box and get a very unbalanced game. Unless it is for a Trophy maybe, I will avoid it. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Mar 14, 2025 - 19:16 |
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I feel so sorry for orcs, so so sorry. |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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Mar 14, 2025 - 19:36 |
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I'm currently running for the Iron Dwarf Trophy... and I confirm it's a huge problem.
Look at the top 20:
https://fumbbl.com/p/idt
How many teams above 15 games can you see?
If the Box is a shark tank, the season 2 Box is a shark tank full of krakens and giant octopuses and Cthulhu waiting for you in the depths as bonuses..... |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 14, 2025 - 19:49 |
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Some of the IRONDWARF Trophy teams were created before Re-Draft implementation, so their players are more developed than they should be.
I play regularly in the Box and most games with Season 2+ teams looked fine to me. The bad games generally are the ones facing very developed players (typically ball carriers) despite the Re-Draft. Some of them are on teams created before Re-Draft, but not all. This is why I suggested to make a shorter Season, currently it's quite possible to have a +2 MA ball carrier in 15 games. With every Re-Draft kicking in after 15 games, the freaks can stay around for 30 or even more games.
Keeping a super ball carrier for so many games pretty much defeats the concept of Re-Draft. Playing at low TV is fine, but the freaks must be harder and more expensive to build and keep. |
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smeborg
Joined: Jan 04, 2019
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Mar 14, 2025 - 21:56 |
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I played against my first Season 2 opponent in SLO. I made a rash challenge without really thinking about it, and ended up playing with 6 acquired skills vs. 13. A mighty struggle! I would say that there is (normally - of course there will be exceptions) a deep imbalance when a Season 1 team is drawn against a Season 2 team at around the same TV (because of the difference in the number of acquired skills).
I have the following practical suggestions:
- Have a separate Blackbox draw for Season 2+ teams, and/or
- Prioritise in the Blackbox algorithm that Season 2+ teams be drawn against one another, and/or
- Add (say) 100,000 in Inducement money to the Season 1 team, and/or
- Allow an "opt out" for season 1 teams that are drawn against Season 2+ teams.
Hope that helps! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 14, 2025 - 22:01 |
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| smeborg wrote: |
I have the following practical suggestions:
- Have a separate Blackbox draw for Season 2+ teams, and/or
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The Black Box already matches Season 1 teams only with Season 1 teams and Season 2+ teams only with Season 2+ teams:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=33217
(source: Christer himself) |
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chaoshugs_
Joined: Jan 22, 2022
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Mar 14, 2025 - 23:03 |
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I do not disagree with the separate draws. However, this was not the case with my match. In my case it was both s2 teams but with a 480k difference, against any team with no megastars available that's a huge hill to climb.
Yes, I wasn't in the mood to entertain the inevitable at 6am and that's on me, but it seem unfair in the sense that I'd relatively recently had to cull some players and backroom staff in order to redraft whereas the other team had obviously had time to rebuild, having kept their legendary ball carrier, allowing them to secure wins fairly early in games and then score at will with 5 other players. Vamps being especially good at this and the coach being extremely decent as well.
Not taking anything away from them, but the algorithm is flawed if it's allowing these matchups to take place regularly. |
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chaoshugs_
Joined: Jan 22, 2022
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Mar 14, 2025 - 23:06 |
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For me it just means any s2 teams I have will not be going in the box. And that's a shame |
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smeborg
Joined: Jan 04, 2019
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Mar 15, 2025 - 02:27 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | smeborg wrote: |
I have the following practical suggestions:
- Have a separate Blackbox draw for Season 2+ teams, and/or
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The Black Box already matches Season 1 teams only with Season 1 teams and Season 2+ teams only with Season 2+ teams:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=33217
(source: Christer himself) |
Thanks - good to know. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 15, 2025 - 11:01 |
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The same vamps also played your humans at a similar point in season in reverse and yet that was fair to you?
My probing question above aside, yes, there are going to be wrinkles with the system. However, there is almost always a point at which you are left asking the question of impact on the number of possible matches in draws.
I'd like to think orcs with Hthark or Varag, a wizard, a developed hitter, carrier and some skills on Big Uns could make a game of it vs vamps in capable hands. Certainly there are win conditions there that can be explored.
But ultimately that is going to come down to the mentality of those involved - you say this game was beyond you, and I accept that, that judgement is absolutely your prerogative.
But there will be countless other games that are s2+ that aren't beyond you that you would exclude from possibility by being restrictive here and box s2 games as a whole would likely be quite depleted - largely because there aren't that many people playing s2+ in the box to begin with.
The old blackbox as a separate division, in its last few iterations, used a matching system which had a growing allowed tv-gap over time based upon games played (rookie protection), which then opened up into a free-for-all after a certain number of games. The idea being that after a period of time, with correct team management, an older team should have enough tools to weather most matches with inducements if necessary. The current system is quite synchronous with that with the s1 vs s2+ disallowance in place because end of season effectively creates an entire division of minmaxed teams if they are not retired on season end.
This doesn't mean that this isn't worth discussion, but I'm just providing the alternative viewpoint. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 15, 2025 - 11:18 |
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Orcs 1220k, 2nd game of second season
Vamps 1710k, 8th game of second season
Match sounds ok apart from the TV gap
Isn’t there a max TV gap limit? I thought it was 350k
If not then it will be rough on teams who’ve just redrafted
Agent fees can be 100-200k or more, so teams can start a season pretty low
My orcs came out at 1120k with 1 RR and no apoth
I think there should be a max TV gap limit, if there isn’t one |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 15, 2025 - 11:37 |
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+1 to the max TV gap limit in the Box for Season 2+ teams too.
350 or 300 sounds reasonable to me. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Mar 15, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Mar 15, 2025 - 11:49 |
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350 is enforced in season 1 Black Box.
Right now there is no cap on season 2+.
For myself I don’t think the problem is huge, as stars still are very good, as is the wizard. But I would also be ok with a cap… maybe higher than for season 1. |
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