ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 15, 2025 - 13:37 |
 
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| Sp00keh wrote: | If not then it will be rough on teams who’ve just redrafted
Agent fees can be 100-200k or more, so teams can start a season pretty low
My orcs came out at 1120k with 1 RR and no apoth
I think there should be a max TV gap limit, if there isn’t one |
I understand it's your own personal frame of reference, but I feel it may be rather disingenuous to imply that in future we should be looking at teams redrafting after a season of 50+ games as our basis for how things may sit.
Your orcs are potentially an absolutely brutal opponent for anyone who redrafted without that same initial season, even with the limitations trying to keep those players forces.
Much as in anything, TV does not tell the entire story. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Mar 15, 2025 - 13:48 |
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CrisisChris
Joined: Dec 11, 2023
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Mar 15, 2025 - 14:52 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | +1 to the max TV gap limit in the Box for Season 2+ teams too.
350 or 300 sounds reasonable to me. |
Resonable to me as well, but wasn't there a complain about S2+ teams having problems to get matches? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 15, 2025 - 19:07 |
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Yes, but that's more due to people not playing Season 2+ teams, I guess.
Many teams in the Box are Season 1 teams.
I manage to play at least 2 games a day with my Season 2+ teams. |
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chaoshugs_
Joined: Jan 22, 2022
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Mar 15, 2025 - 22:53 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | The same vamps also played your humans at a similar point in season in reverse and yet that was fair to you?. |
...similar point maybe...massive TV difference no.
As I said, decent coach as well, and I have no problem with vamps being vamps. But vamps being vamps with 480k on top is a bit different. Even varag would be no match really given hynogaze etc. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 16, 2025 - 11:27 |
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| chaoshugs_ wrote: | | ArrestedDevelopment wrote: | | The same vamps also played your humans at a similar point in season in reverse and yet that was fair to you?. |
...similar point maybe...massive TV difference no.
As I said, decent coach as well, and I have no problem with vamps being vamps. But vamps being vamps with 480k on top is a bit different. Even varag would be no match really given hynogaze etc. |
I was hoping to provoke some introspection with a mildly probing question.
You point to the TV but TV is an absolutely awful representation of team strength. Especially in an environment where we have half-price skills obtained on random rolls and teams who had extremely extended season 1 in which to obtain both these skills and stack skills and stats in general.
Your humans might have been a similar TV to the vampires, but they fielded two legends. I'm sure your opponent was as thrilled by this matchup as you were the return fixture.
I'm not so sure on your assessment of the inducements either. After all, if ogres can do it, I'm sure orcs are also capable.
As I said, the system has wrinkles, it's a valid discussion to broach, but we have to accept that TV isn't the be all and end all, the environment is somewhat tainted by the presence of teams with extended s1 (especially those imported from R and B who may also have d3 MVP on top of that), and on top of all this - the overwhelming priority is to make games. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 16, 2025 - 13:50 |
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| ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
I understand it's your own personal frame of reference, but I feel it may be rather disingenuous to imply that in future we should be looking at teams redrafting after a season of 50+ games as our basis for how things may sit. |
My orcs are just an example, and their history is kinda irrelevant
Every team, even ones created now, can reach a similar state, in which they’re cutting deep to accommodate 200k of agent fees, and come out of redraft at that similar level of 1150k or less
Also, by the end of season 2, teams can potentially be really high TV
Java got those vamps to 1710k in 8 games of his second season after all
So my orcs aren’t really the point
The point is the TV gap that can happen during the course of a season, and if it should be capped or not
Varag is good but still, vamps are pretty strongly favoured in the OP’s matchup |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 16, 2025 - 14:13 |
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A 1300k Re-Draft budget could help too.
Currently both the Season's length and the budget are a bit too high.
To summarize the ideas:
- Shorter Season set at 12-10 games;
- 1300k Re-Draft budget instead of 1350k;
- max TV gap 300 or 350;
- teams paired by 2 game brackets (both half of Season's length). |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 16, 2025 - 14:46 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | | ArrestedDevelopment wrote: |
I understand it's your own personal frame of reference, but I feel it may be rather disingenuous to imply that in future we should be looking at teams redrafting after a season of 50+ games as our basis for how things may sit. |
My orcs are just an example, and their history is kinda irrelevant
Every team, even ones created now, can reach a similar state, in which they’re cutting deep to accommodate 200k of agent fees, and come out of redraft at that similar level of 1150k or less
Also, by the end of season 2, teams can potentially be really high TV
Java got those vamps to 1710k in 8 games of his second season after all
So my orcs aren’t really the point
The point is the TV gap that can happen during the course of a season, and if it should be capped or not
Varag is good but still, vamps are pretty strongly favoured in the OP’s matchup |
Your orc's history absolutely is relevant - some of the players you cut so deep to keep have played the equivalent of over 3 seasons: in any other scenario you don't retain multiple 3+ skill Big Uns like that, and so the team composition (and TV) is completely different. And while yes, some teams may very well reach that state, you'd need to do it over multiple seasons, each of which would give you pause to question whether it was optimal for your team (and it might still be, I fully accept it's entirely plausible to end up with very low TV as an optimal redraft).
I refer to them because you brought them up after all. And because they are illustrative of another problem - we have teams who are floating extremely low with massively stacked skills due to extended season 1 or import from previous divisions.
And sure vamps can float really high. Some elves might too if they can stay alive. But the majority of the s2 teams I've seen in box are 14-1600ktv, so are we really talking about making exclusionary rules already for one particular roster? Especially when the issue may actually just be the roster itself according to some?
Rules based upon TV are not really measuring roster strength, composition or viability. They also create additional downward pressure on the average TV of the division due to coach perceptions. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 16, 2025 - 15:22 |
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Don’t forget that as some of my big uns played more than 50 games, I had to pay 60k agent fees to keep them, not 20k
This was done specifically because of the concern about legacy team advantage that you mention
Edit: here’s the blog from Christer where Rawlf raised the issue originally
https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=Christer&id=25529
So they are not special really, a new team could get themselves into this same state given enough games
The rest of your post I’m not really disagreeing but is kinda splitting hairs a bit
Something like 200k of agent fees is probably gonna be common enough, so redrafting at 1150 1100 or even lower is possible, and I’ve seen a dark elf team that got to 2300? in its first 15 games
A gap of 1000 would be possible
So, to me the main point here is about if season 2+ should have a tv difference cap, or not
I think it should (especially as megastars are banned), but can see that it also would hurt the ability to get matches |
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Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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Mar 16, 2025 - 18:52 |
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It seems to me that we just need a tv matching limit for seasons 2+, possibly rather tahn a fixed number one that scales somewhat with what your current tv is and how many games they've played. That should fix the issues in practice well enough. |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Mar 16, 2025 - 19:01 |
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I can see activating at Season 2+ just being like sacrificing your team to a big TV kill-stack predator, especially in off-peak hours. I'd agree with the concept of a 350-ish TV gap limit.
(especially if you could turn that limiting factor OFF if desired) Building an interesting team for a major will be tough enough now as it is.
I like the old idea of a Rainbow Box Draw. At the top of the hour (or in a separate BlackBox) each coach MUST enter 3 teams of different races, and the TVs must be in 3 different TV categories. (low, medium, high) All three teams are 'paired' against an opponent's similar TV teams, and you get to choose one of the matches you do NOT want to play. The scheduler randomly selects the match that is 'drawn' after each coach declines one of the 3 matches. Niche? Maybe. Popular? I bet it would be. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 16, 2025 - 19:34 |
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There’s not really such thing as a big kill stack team anymore
Attrition comes from the redraft itself |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 16, 2025 - 19:44 |
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Since the most expensive Star Players cost 340k, 340 or 350 max TV gap seems better.
300 would not allow to hire Luthor von Drakenborg or Lucien & Valen Swift. |
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