Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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 Posted:
Mar 17, 2025 - 09:12 |
 
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| Rawlf wrote: | IMO the big TV gap is not such a big problem. Most teams can induce a wiz, 2 good stars, bribes etc to make the game interesting still.
The problem is Megavamps, they are ridiculously broken. |
Seconded. I hope that seasons will keep them in check for the next majors |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 17, 2025 - 10:51 |
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Regarding megavamps, Java's team from OP's matchup have now played 12 games of their second season and are at 1820k
It is looking I think like they are building for tourney, it's the full roster, 6 vamps and the vargh. 4 of the vamps are retained from last season and are skilled, the other 3 are new and unskilled, so it's a bit lop-sided
Another couple rerolls and they'll be at 1940k |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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Mar 17, 2025 - 11:16 |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Mar 17, 2025 - 11:30 |
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EDIT
you're right, Rawlf, I shouldn't be replying to this  |
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Last edited by Java on Mar 17, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Rawlf
Joined: Jul 15, 2007
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Mar 17, 2025 - 11:57 |
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I'll cut out my reply too then.  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:22 |
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| Rawlf wrote: | IMO the big TV gap is not such a big problem. Most teams can induce a wiz, 2 good stars, bribes etc to make the game interesting still.
The problem is Megavamps, they are ridiculously broken. |
This ^, not just mega vamps... mega zons are also ridiculous..
The problem with vamps aside from hypno being bused is their Ma... you just cannot stop them getting hits on the ball carrier. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:23 |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:33 |
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| Rawlf wrote: | IMO the big TV gap is not such a big problem. Most teams can induce a wiz, 2 good stars, bribes etc to make the game interesting still.
The problem is Megavamps, they are ridiculously broken. |
This is the crux of one half of the problem.
As anyone doing some cursory research of the last few days' games, and with foreknowledge of future tournaments, could gather - there's been a number of teams in s2+ box lately who are there solely to prep for the UI. In doing so they are going to attempt to gain skills/players/positionals and rerolls to the level their coach deems optimal for tournament play.
And for a vampire roster that's going to result in a large TV. As I alluded to earlier, it would also do so for elves provided they could stay alive.
It's somewhat harder to quickly push spp onto particular players for a bash team - you're largely reliant on cas-spp falling properly and making 75% handoffs to hit the players you really, really want the spp on for most of them.
Which is why I'd suggest being careful about pushing a TV-gap limit (especially a very flat one that had no respect to games-in-season) - we also have teams who are redrafting to low tv with multiple stars+ (and may additionally have had an extended s1 where they actually have sat on the ranges where there is a discount on agent fees).
That means it's quite possible to create a split environment where you have large (mostly agility) teams who can only play vs each other and below them a shark tank of semi-developed to fully-developed bash who feed on any teams redrafting as well as each other, and know that they only need to cut below a certain level to avoid playing uphill in games they might not want to entertain. Especially so that many of these teams may never be building towards anything except their next season - they can and will "play to the scheduler" indefinitely.
It has effects on development, it has effects on composition and it has a massive effect on the environment. Anyone who thinks that's entirely desirable would do well to read up on the meta of the old 15% box.
And all because one particular roster, already considered to be problematic, is deployed by a few coaches in the build up to tournaments to get in shape for entry.
I'm not casting any stones here, and while I've referenced a few specific teams to be illustrative of wider potential problems in scheduling I do so with no intent of "blame" - any teams legal to schedule in the box have been created in accordance to the site rules of the time.
But we live in interesting times for the moment - you could still potentially see 6 blocker chorfs in box or tournaments for example, and it's important to be careful where and when we swing the axe. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:52 |
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You're overplaying it there AD I think
Every team in s2+ is basically the same
They've cut to keep their good players
They are now rebuilding, and getting games against other s2+ teams who're in the same boat
There's nothing else going on really... or rather, every team will be doing the same thing
This is our new normal
Yes, some rosters are stronger than others, some suit this environment more than others, but that's a separate question and not a new one |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Mar 17, 2025; edited 2 times in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:54 |
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For what is worth, I play regularly in the Box and I rarely faced Season 2+ teams much higher than 1400 TV.
Most teams are lower TV than that. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Mar 17, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:56 |
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That's why I'm guessing Java's not bought his extra rerolls yet, he needs to stay a bit low to still get matches before he hits game-15 and then enter tourney
I missed what the edited comment was, so I'm still just speculating on his intentions |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 17, 2025 - 12:58 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | You're overplaying it there AD I think
Every team in s2+ is basically the same
They've cut to keep their good players
They are now rebuilding, and getting games against other s2+ teams who're in the same boat
There's nothing else going on really... or rather, every team will be doing the same thing
This is our new normal
Yes, some rosters are stronger than others, some suit this environment more than others, but that's a separate question and not a new one
Oh and, 6 blocker chorfs don't exist in [C] anymore |
I'm not overplaying anything and I really wish you'd do the most basic research before dismissing what I say as you have repeatedly done in this thread
https://fumbbl.com/t/1091606
If anything, the people overplaying are the ones calling for exclusionary changes based upon single-roster issues. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 17, 2025 - 13:00 |
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I did look for examples after I thought about it a bit more, and did delete that part of my comment cos I found some
I dunno how redraft is handled for them
That example, redraft will be brutal. They won't be able to keep the good bulls as well as more than 2-3 blockers
It'll quickly resolve itself, a team won't be able to carry 6 blockers for long, into a 3rd season for example
Anyway, I find the influence of vamps on the meta to be an interesting topic, but it's kinda out of scope here mostly
I am really not 'calling for exclusionary changes based upon single-roster issues', I think plenty of rosters can grow big
My concern here is big teams matching against freshly redrafted 1100k teams resulting in big TV gaps, and if this needs addressed or not
I don't think its exclusionary .. it does reduce the number of matches but exclusionary is a bit too strong a term probably
Actually - in fact it might help get games played. If people knew they wouldn't get a massive TV gap, they might be more inclined to play their s2+ teams |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Mar 17, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 17, 2025 - 13:09 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | | I did look for examples after I thought about it a bit more, and did delete that part of my comment cos I found some |
Shall I then go through absolutely everything you've dismissed and equally refute your handwaving it away? It's really rather tiresome.
There's an agency fee reduction in place for older teams with extended s1 and/or import from R/B (I appreciate some or all of your players may have landed on precipices that actually saw you miss this due to tournaments but it exists).
That allows teams to keep quite a few more skills than they otherwise would have for their initial s2. Yes, this may self-resolve over time, but equally so their coaches may actually just play that first loaded season then abandon the team (perhaps after entering it in a tournament). Some coaches have enough old teams that even doing this would provide them with many months of low-mid TV teams with quite large relative advantages.
Creating an arbitrary TV-gap cap benefits those teams because not only do they benefit from missing out on playing vs a team substantially larger than themselves, at the same time they increase the odds they play vs a team where their loaded skills have more leverage.
This is before we even get down to the whole issue of reducing effective matches. Which should really be the main problem for the whole proposal, I've only been offering a counterview to the idea that all teams should have the right to a flat TV-gap cap.
| MattDakka wrote: | For what is worth, I play regularly in the Box and I rarely faced Season 2+ teams much higher than 1400 TV.
Most teams are lower TV than that. |
And that's really the usual truth - akin to the complaints about the post-modification box: mismatches happened and it was unfortunate, but the overall system was working and the proposed changes might have been worse. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 17, 2025 - 13:20 |
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Ok, I'm not trying to be dismissive but I think we are talking about slightly different things and that's why its misaligned
I used orcs as a redraft example because that's one I was playing recently
But I could have used a different team, eg these undead had a season1 before the ruleschange, but it was only 15 games. They then redrafted at 1135k https://fumbbl.com/t/1057678
My points I've been trying to make about gap cap, would have been the same. 1135k is still really low
So that's why I've appeared to be dismissive of the stuff you're talking about relating to legacy team advantage, or I felt you were overplaying stuff |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Mar 17, 2025; edited 3 times in total |
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