MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:24 |
 
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Keep on playing, the real games start at Season 2. 
About the team's age over TV difference: it's a case-by-case scenario. You can't be sure that an older team is currently better than a younger team, because the older team could have MNGs. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:29 |
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@koadah you don't get to see what other teams were in the draw, only what matches get made
You can't see teams or coaches that were entered but didn't get drawn
@Chingis "5-game team plays a 14-game team"
If it's your vamp team, they were at 1230k with 6 skillups, opponent was at 1185k with 10 skillups
This is a totally reasonable matchup imo |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Apr 11, 2025; edited 2 times in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:33 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Keep on playing, the real games start at Season 2. |
| Sp00keh wrote: | @koadah you don't get to see what other teams were in the draw, only what matches get made
You can't see teams or coaches that were entered but didn't get drawn |
Ah, OK.
That used to be available. Including the weighting for each possible match. |
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Last edited by koadah on Apr 11, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:36 |
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Yea, it was interesting to see what it did, but probably switched off as it just caused moaning about matchups
Also maybe people used it to try and dodge certain opponents
MNGs are a good point
If I'm at 10 gamesplayed but then have 3 expensive players MNG so am knocked back down to 980k or something, I'd want to face another similar low-TV opponent. Not a team at 1300k |
Last edited by Sp00keh on Apr 11, 2025; edited 2 times in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:43 |
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@Chingis: as an aside, I humbly suggest to drop 2 rrs from your Human team at Season's end, since you are concerned about match-ups. Your team will improve its TV efficiency.
Keep the Leader if you can. If you can't, go with 3 team rrs.
The right number of rrs for that TV and race is 3 (either 2 team rrs + Leader or 3 team rrs).
Focus on the things you can control.
With 4 rrs, even if the Box matched you vs an opponent with exactly the same TV and same team's age, you would likely be at a disadvantage every game. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Apr 11, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:48 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Keep on playing, the real games start at Season 2.
About the team's age over TV difference: it's a case-by-case scenario. You can't be sure that an older team is currently better than a younger team, because the older team could have MNGs. |
true. TV used to be a reasonable way of measuring a team's strength. Now with different costed skills, bizarrely priced stat increases, incorrectly priced players and teams it's really pretty awful at the job is was meant to do... Sadly as it's so intrinsically tied with inducements it doesn't really allow room for a TS formula...
hmmmm I wonder if a TS formula is achievable.... What do you think Matt? fancy taking a crack at it? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 11:58 |
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I suggested to price random skills their full cost just for purpose of pairing teams.
So, if you got random Tackle on a Norse lino, for instance, that Lino would cost 70 TS for the scheduler (but 60 TV for purpose of calculating the Inducements).
Another idea could be a "virtual tax" when more than 3 skills/stats are stacked on the same player, adding an extra cost to the 4th, 5th and 6th skill/stat boost (like a +30/+40/+50 TS or +20/+40/+60 TS).
+MA should cost 30 TS (but 20 TV). |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Apr 11, 2025 - 12:52 |
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Random skills at full price does kinda make sense, but it cuts out a lot of the reason for taking them
Stacking tax - that's kinda what the agent fees already are there to do |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 12:57 |
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Agent fees have effect every 15 games. TS tax would be applied every game. It's a huge difference.
About taking random skills: a random skill requires less SPPs, that's an advantage, especially in short Seasons and for teams needing skills as soon as possible.
Another advantage is that the players with random skills are cheaper to re-draft. |
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Zelmor
Joined: Sep 29, 2022
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Apr 11, 2025 - 14:12 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | I suggested to price random skills their full cost just for purpose of pairing teams. |
This is what killed BB3 for a lot of us - a deviation from the tabletop ruleset when they messed with TV costs for random skills. You mess with teams in a way that you do not understand from a design perspective. Perhaps you are good at the game. That doesn't mean you are clever, it doesn't mean you understand the design on a systems-level. It just means you are good at the game. For example, in a league environment certain teams need random skills to keep their TV in an optimal range while also developing at a reasonable pace. Chaos Chose and High Elves come to mind. Have you considered how every team would be affected by such proposed changes to the matchmaking algo?
Let me ask, because someone talked about this before, what does it matter if my team is season 2 game 4 and yours is season 3 game 10? You might be lower TV due to injuries or me bloating the team. it is a semi-random pairing within a reasonable range of TV difference and we have a game all the same.
I think a lot of the people complaining are used to comfort too much. You don't like the music on Spotify or the video on Youtube? You click on something else without friction, without thinking. Gone are the days of having to listen to a CD or a casette you bought blindly form a band you knew, and didn't like on first listen, where you had to put in some time and effort to find enjoyment in what you were served.
I understand that we all think we want the best for the game and for FUMBBL going forward. I would like to ask the complainers to sit a little with their feelings and consider: are you advocating for something that is better, or are you refusing to put in the effort to adjust your expectations? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 15:09 |
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I don't know how BB3 system works, I'm talking about FUMBBL and Box.
What would not work with fully pricing random skills? Do you know the difference between TS and TV? |
Last edited by MattDakka on Apr 11, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 11, 2025 - 15:50 |
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Pricing random skills at a different cost negates the effectiveness of TV as system. It's a change made to the game by people that truly don't understand the game they are working on... by designers that inherited a system designed over the course of 12 years, and then changing it without any real understanding of the implications... This is why they keep breaking the game, then react after the fact by changing rules again in FAQs and soft banning via Mega Star status etc...
Also... this ^ (the parts about the games designers not knowing what they are doing) is not conjecture... one of the designers of this edition left GW and designed the Fallout game. He has been interviewed on youtube and very clearly does not understand the game at even an intermediate level.
Matt is correct, Randoms should be full price. Coaches already get an advantage in gaining a skill with fewer SPP required, which is fair enough. It should not impact the Team Value in a different way.
That said we shouldn't house rule, I also don't think Matt wants to House Rule. That's why I mention TS as a way of paring, and what I believe Matt is also suggesting.
the site has had TS before and benefitted from it greatly, as TS was a far better indicator of a Teams Strength than the official formula. The only problem now is that TV is intrinsically designed from 2009 and on to balance against Tv. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 11, 2025 - 16:06 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Pricing random skills at a different cost negates the effectiveness of TV as system. It's a change made to the game by people that truly don't understand the game they are working on... |
I doubt that those people were designing for the Fumbbl [C]ompetitive division.
This edition may well be worse than previous editions but I don't think that any edition has really worked well with the Black Box.
You can either change the league to suit the rules or change the rules to suit the league.
Box will probably always be bit of a compromise. |
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20 Year Anniversary! - 2016 Nostalgia Bowl - Weds 23rd April! -- All Star Bowl - Always recruiting! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 11, 2025 - 16:19 |
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| Garion wrote: |
That said we shouldn't house rule, I also don't think Matt wants to House Rule. That's why I mention TS as a way of paring, and what I believe Matt is also suggesting.
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Yes, I'm not suggesting to change the TV cost of random skills.
When I talk about pricing the random skills at full cost, I mean TS.
The TS price of random skills is supposed to be used just for matchmaking pairing.
The scheduler could try to pair by closest TV and TS, if possible. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 11, 2025 - 16:28 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Pricing random skills at a different cost negates the effectiveness of TV as system. It's a change made to the game by people that truly don't understand the game they are working on... |
I doubt that those people were designing for the Fumbbl [C]ompetitive division.
This edition may well be worse than previous editions but I don't think that any edition has really worked well with the Black Box.
You can either change the league to suit the rules or change the rules to suit the league.
Box will probably always be bit of a compromise. |
Absolutely.
Though I think despite all its obvious flaws 2016 edition worked pretty well in Blackbox. And that edition maintained TV in line with it's original design.
As this edition has made a mess of TVs significance I think something needs to change in Blackbox to help... but I can't figure it out. This edition has just moved from one awful exploit to another. I still love the game, as it is blood bowl at its core. but it really has been the exploit edition... |
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