Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Jun 14, 2024 - 19:35 |
 
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S access on elf blitzers is insane. |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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| Posted:
Jun 14, 2024 - 19:47 |
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| Cathaidan wrote: | Maybe it is time to discuss the real issue with the Assassin: the AV 8.
Like, stab isn't a great skill at all. Shadowing is decent, but take it isn't a high priority on most teams. But the problem with the Assassin is that, if you fail the stab, you're a non-block, dodge, wrestle guy about to get punched in the face and you've only got AV8. Bump the assassin's armor up to at least match a lino, and it is a far superior piece to what it is today. |
How about trying something really different? What if, to block Assassin, you still would have to be Stabbed first? Like, a free armor roll against your player for the DE team's coach? That would only apply on the first block thrown on the Assassin, and wouldn't be applied if that block is part of Blitz.
So, before blocking them, you need to consider a probability of your player going down, and TO happening. Even if they are AV10+ orc.
P.S.:
May be make it work similar to Foul Appearance, to not make Assassins OP ball-carriers? So, before blocking them, you roll D6, and if you get 4+, nothing happens. Otherwise, you are Stabbed first, and if your armor is broken, you drop down and TO happens. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 19:51 |
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What is insane is Elves unable to pass. That's insane!
Agility is too expensive for what it gives in BB2020.
Without multi rr Elves would be even less playable than they are. They look quite playable, although nerfed, due to multi rr. Remove multi rr and passing, as we know it in BB2020, gets even less viable. This is why they would need S access on Blitzers.
Skaven have S access on Blitzers (and M as Secondary) but nobody talks about that, that's insane, with 4 potential natural one turners on the roster (with M access as Secondary, that means Two Heads = easy 1ttd). |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %14, %2024 - %19:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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SeriliKirico
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
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Jun 14, 2024 - 19:53 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | What is insane is Elves unable to pass. That's insane! |
True, but I doubt there is anything to add to that subject. Sadly, the ball is in GW's court, we can only wait and hope for rules update |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 19:57 |
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I know. I'm just trying to explain that, with the current passing-challenged Elves we have, giving to Blitzers S access would not be insane.
It would be insane with 0-4 DE Blitzers. With 0-2 Blitzers it's not insane and (gasp!) we could actually see a couple of Assassins played on a DE roster!  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 14, 2024 - 20:42 |
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Naaa elves are still really good. All types of elf.
Sure they aren't as good as they were. But giving their blitzers S would make them busted |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 20:52 |
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Then Skaven are busted. They are basically almost as agile as Elves but with 3 players with Primary S access and Secondary M access, and 4 players with MA 9 AG 4 , Dodge and Secondary M access.
Basically they can do what Elves do (not with each player, because Linemen have AG 3+, I mean in terms of overall gameplay) but better. The Linemen don't dodge as well but it's pretty negligible, with 4 potential easy-to-build one turners.
I play Elves because I find fun their dynamic gameplay (with all the players), but with Skaven I would do that more easily. Skaven one turning is no brain just with normal skills. With Elves more skills are required, and at least 1 (Juggernaut) is a Secondary.
And, for sure, a DE Runner with PA 3+ is absolutely wrong.
PA 2+ on him would be right, not PA 3+.
And what about Vampires? Compare them to Elves, then tell me that Elves with 0-2 Blitzers with S access would be insane...  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 14, 2024 - 21:05 |
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Elves and skaven play very different. One turning is only part of their game. Mass ag4 is a huge boon.
Vampires are busted coz of Ma8 and hypno |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 21:11 |
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One turning is what makes Elves win in a world of bashing and stalling. Fact.
I'm top 1 in the Box with 3 on 4 Elven races due to one turning and withdrawn offence.
If you think it's not effective, do better than me, I will watch you. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %14, %2024 - %21:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 14, 2024 - 21:14 |
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That's nonsense. Elf pressure is what makes them so good. A well placed guard with a few blodge in the correct place then you can get at the opposing ball carrier. Relying on one turn is not what makes elves good
As for you being top ranked or close to. You know that's meaningless. You play more games than anyone on the site. So you get to pimp your team to the max. That doesn't mean one turn is the only reason elves are good.
I wish I had time to play these days. Sadly real life doesn't leave much time. But we both know the best elf coaches around ... people like dolls etc... they never had to rely on ott to win. Elf press is and always has been what makes elves so powerful |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %14, %2024 - %21:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 21:15 |
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I still don't see you top 1 in the Box with any Elven race.
My opinion is backed up by cold, solid rankings in the Box. Facts, not just words.
I didn't want to use this but your words were getting too annoying, because not backed up by facts and achievements.
Honestly, I'm bored by people always talking but never playing Elves as much as I do.
Anyway, I repeat: play in the way you are suggesting (with Guard, pressure etc.) and do better than me in the Box rankings.
Then you will have a point. I will watch you.
Not just 15 games, over and over again, do it for hundreds of games with the same team, as I do.
Let's see how long you manage to win and keep a healthy team with your pressure and guard when you face MA 8 Orcs with Blodge and two ST 4 Blodger Blitzers + Tacklemb and Guard spam.
Remember, facts, not just words. Debates and theories are nice, but they always need to be backed up by facts and achievements.
Otherwise they are just words (they might be wrong or right, statistics and win rate are required to see if a strategy is really successful over time).
Personally, I tried the pressure strategy several times in BB2020, it doesn't work, and, assuming it works, you can't keep a healthy team for long doing the pressure strategy (the Casualties are a big unknown element you can't predict, and that's a big issue of the pressure strategy).
This is what I don't pressure anymore (not always, but most of times I don't rely on pressure). |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 14, 2024 - 21:32 |
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Elves have so much in their locker. If you truly believe ott is why you win with the elf races go back through all your wins with elves and see what percentage were won by ott. I'd be shocked if it was above 15%
If its above 50% then you may have a factual point. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 14, 2024 - 22:11 |
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Sometimes I didn't even need to 1TTD because some people didn't want to lose to 1TTD and decided to score without stalling.
Not just bad coaches, some were expert ones.
The simple fact I can 1TTD might have an impact on games without actually one turning.
It has some stalling deterrency value. Some people prefer to score earlier and try to defend rather than passively lose to 1TTD on last turn.
If you defend and pressure you can stop the offence, sometimes, but then you start the 2nd half outnumbered.
Then you can't properly stall due to being outnumbered (or you have to take many risks).
And this leads to need for passing, due to being outnumbered, and passing being bad and leading to taking even more risks.
With S access on 0-2 Blitzers maybe you could try to pressure with Guard or just remove some players with Mighty Blow (nobody thinks to outbash Orcs with 2 Mighty Blows, but it could help vs other agile and hybrid teams, while Guard could help to pressure a cage or open a path along the side lines).
That and a decent Runner with PA 2+. And with 0-2 Blitzers, the team would lack speed.
That would make 0-2 Assassins needed to have some extra speed (and we are back on topic's thread, making Assassins more viable).
Currently 0-4 Blitzers are too good compared to an Assassin.
Remove 2 Blitzers, buff a bit the Assassins (with Dodge instead of Shadowing), give the DE Runner PA 2+ with -1 to Dump-Off pass, and then you have a DE team with the same average speed (2 Blitzers + 2 Assassins + 2 Witch Elves = same speed as 4 Blitzers, 2 Witch Elves)
but more interesting (due to 2 Assassins with Stab) and 2 Blitzers actually able to do some damage with Mighty Blow and pressure the ball carrier with Guard as you said. The average AV would decrease a bit (because Assassins have AV 8+ while Blitzers have AV 9+ and this should be a balance factor for having S access on 2 Blitzers).
The amount of Blodge players with 1 skill would be the same as now too (I considered the NAF format too).
I hope I explained it better now.
And no, I don't think it would be insane, just more interesting and not unbalanced.
I might be wrong, just my idea, but I had to point it out.
I would need to test my roster because theories need actual gameplay, but on paper it doesn't seem insane, especially considering other BB2020 rosters. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 15, 2024 - 01:36 |
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Sure... these are extenuating circumstances in lots of matches. But you brought up cold facts. So as I say - check your elf games see what proportion were directly won by ott. Afterwhich you may have a case. Though I'm confident you won't.
The problem with your hypothesis around giving elves S access is it comes from a high TV perspective from teams that have played hundred of games.
What your hypothesis does not take into account is that doubles like guard and mb are extremely valuable at mid TV and very much a deteriming factor in an elf teams winning ability. These skills are just standard at higher TV with hundreds of games played with one specific elf team. however this isn't the norm. The norm is mid TV and also where the rules are designed to be played. Giving elves Guard and Mb in league play would see elves have total dominance. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2024 - 11:52 |
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Guard and MB on just 2 players would not give Elves total dominance because hybrid and basher teams can have more Guards and more Mighty Blows at any TV.
I have high TV Wood Elves with just 1 S skill on a WD, Juggernaut. The same goes for my EU and DE. My HE have no Juggernaut because I have to skill up a Blitzer and get it.
I don't even find Elves at high TV in the Box and I play lots of games.
I find high TV bashers most commonly. Recently I faced high TV Chaos, Orcs, Chaos Dwarfs, Dwarfs, Khemri, Khorne (I checked my last 30 games played).
So, there are no Elven teams with lots of Guard and MB.
There are no Elven teams at all at high TV. That's the reality.
If you played in the Box you would find that out. |
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