FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 04:35

I have been in a few heated threads on Ausbowl discord and other places regarding this issue.

I ask that you please read the entire post before making a reply and to please only ask questions that haven't been asked already in this thread.

I was having this discussion with someone on Ausbowl
They jumped into Christer's DMs about it and misrepresented my argument.

Christer is known for being a good arbitor of rules and thus I have come here to make this thread.

Hypnotic Gaze ; Can it be used from prone? Can it be used if a player has lost their Tackle Zone for some reason?

Part 1: Permission.

Page 43 outlines 8 different types of actions, Move, Pass, Hand-off, Throw Team-mate, Block, Blitz, Foul, and Special Action.

Page 42 has the rule about declaring actions before moving. "When you activate a player you must declare which action you will perform (and if required, the target of the action.)

Page 43 again under Special Actions (Of which Hypnotic gaze is specially called out)

"In addition to these seven main actions, there are numerous Skills and Traits a player may possess that allow them to perform another, unique action."

My interpretation of that means that you must possess that skill and be able to use it to be allowed to declare that specific special action.

Part 2: Prone

Page 74 the opening of the Skills section of the book states "Players that are Standing and have not lost their Tackle Zone can use their Skills or Traits at any time, not just during their own activation. Players that are Prone or Stunned, or that have lost their Tackle Zone for any reason, cannot use any Skills or Traits unless otherwise stated in the Skill or Trait description"

On the same Page 74 they talk about compulsory skills being marked with an Asterisk. Examples like Disturbing Presence* and Bonehead*.

As an example if a prone Vampire that has Pro activates to Move, rolls bloodlust and fails on a 1. They may not use Pro to reroll as they cannot use the skill while they don't have a Tackle Zone.

This means to me that you cannot use Hypnotic Gaze while prone therefore you cannot declare the Special Action.

Part 3: Timing

At which point during the 'Selecting a player to activate and declaring an action' do you get your Tackle Zone back?

This is where it isn't so clear.

The closest we get is on Page 43 again at the bottom of the page it states "A Standing player that loses their Tackle Zone should be turned to face one of the sidelines. The player should be left facing the sideline until their next activation begins."

Back to page 42 "When you activate a player you must declare the action that player will perform"

Page 26 outlines losing Tackle Zones with sadly nothing about when they regain it.

On Page 84 and 85 for Bonehead and Hypnotic gaze they mention you lose your Tackle Zone UNTIL you are next activated.

You could interpret this as You activate the player and then declare the action.

or it could be interpreted as the action you declare is that which Activates the player.

This is where there is going to have to be more possible outcomes and more confusion.

Part 4: Targeting

The FAQ confirmed that you must declare your target for Hypnotic Gaze when you are activated and before you move. However..

The FAQ says you "Need to roll for Foul Appearance before performing the Hypnotic Gaze special action"

So you must target them at the start of your activation and roll for Foul Appearance as soon as they are targeted before you move but after bloodlust roll

The hypothetical Vampire coach wants to cause a player to lose its tacklezone so it cannot use dodge or sidestep and will get surf'd.

He has two vampires in range to hypnotic gaze. V1 is prone. V2 has lost its tackle zone for last turn failing bloodlust and not biting someone.

Option A:

V1 is able to declare he is using the Special action Hypnotic Gaze, then stand up regain his Tackle Zone. Walk over and use Hypnotic Gaze on an adjacent player he is now Marking. V2 could also Hypnotic Gaze under these assumptions

V2 can Blitz and surf freely (assuming the dice work in your favor)

Option B:

V1 cannot declare Hypnotic Gaze special action because he is prone and doesn't have permission to use the skill and you would need to use the skill in order to target.

V2 is able to declare Hypnotic Gaze as you declare your action and regain your tacklezone the moment you chose which player you are activating. You then walk over and Gaze the Target

V1 can Blitz and surf freely (assuming the dice work in your favor)

Option C:

Neither V1 or V2 can Hypnotic Gaze because you don't have permission to declare the Special Action unless you have your Tackle Zone before/during when you activate your player.

I'm locking in Option B.

Last edited by cromag on %b %16, %2024 - %06:%Jul; edited 2 times in total

Igvy

Joined: Apr 29, 2007

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 05:38

Honestly I think you are over thinking this.

IMO you've mashed as much out of context wording as you could get, missed the flow and theme of how the game works. Clearly A

But hey, so long as your opponent agrees play with whatever rules you want.

TBH i didnt realise vamps needed a nerf.

ClayInfinity

Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 06:02

To explain:

In part 1, Permission, you state an interpretation that skill and action are linked. Whilst there is a Hypnotic Gaze Skill, the action is a Special Action, but you don't need a skill to declare an action. Pass is an action, but you dont need the Pass skill for example. You have one blitz, one pass, one handoff and unlimited block, move and "special" actions. The declaring of an action is irrelevant to the prone/standing status. If you're prone you can declare any action you want.

In Part 2, you've missed the point that a player is explicitly told that you may move before performing a gaze action in the Hypnotic Gaze description. This therefore implies that the 3MA to stand up can happen befor you gaze. Again, the declaration of the gaze action is different to executing it.

You also note that if you roll bloodlust before standing you cannot use Pro. I am not sure why you can declare a move action or a blitz action which triggers a BL roll, but the Special Action cannot.

Part 3 Timing - Not sure what miniature facing has to do with it, but in respect of declaring the gaze Special Action, you need to declare a target. Again, like Blitz, declaring a target is not contingent on being standing. The target is selected and the latest FAQ clarified the order of dice with respect to BL, Foul Appearance and Dump Off.

You discuss Bonehead... again, a Bonehead'ed player loses his tackle zones but he can declare an action. Again, if the Boneheaded player was prone, this doesnt hinder him from declaring an action.

Part 4 Targetting. You're incorrect as per latest FAQ... you need to declare a Gaze first and it triggers a BL roll. If the action was Gaze or Block or Blitz, you may change it to move. Again, no hinderence is inferred if you're prone or not.

Overall, with your options, A is the answer. Not sure how you've convoluted any other way. The rules of GW are badly written, and the FAQ is hard to follow and in some instances GW have contradicted themselves in the FAQ and have actually deleted some items as well. They're not the best and i can appreciate that the game can be complex with respect to order of operations, but if anything, I think you're tying yourself too tightly to the notion that a Hypnotic Gaze Special Action "declaration" is the same as executing the skill itself.

By this, I would agree with you, you cannot gaze an opposing player standing next to you whilst prone and not getting up.

cromag

Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 07:05

Igvy wrote:

Honestly I think you are over thinking this.

IMO you've mashed as much out of context wording as you could get, missed the flow and theme of how the game works. Clearly A

I'm definitely over thinking it.

I tried to find as much context to support Either possible position.
If we remove the book and play with our hearts then A sounds the most ace 👍

Sadly they did print the book and we play the rest of its rules so why should we ignore what it says.

There is another secret cursed position (Option D) that if you read the Hypnotic Gaze ability word for word you may only use it on someone you started your activation already marking.

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 07:59

I would choose A.

The word 'possess' is used to indicate that someone with hypnotic gaze can use the hypnotic gaze special action.

This is different than the words called out in losing tackle zones that prevent using various skills when you have tackle zones. In particular losing tackle zones is never defined as causiing you to no longer possess the skill.

Therefore, while you cannot use various skills while you have no tackle zones, you do not lose the fact that you 'possess' that skill, which means you are still able to declare the action (and then other things happen, and you get your tackle zones back, and you do the other things allowed by the special action, so you are free to use the skill at the end of the action assuming the other conditions are met.)

TLDR: i disagree with your statement that needing to possess the skill to use the special action somehow implies you must be able to use the skill at time of activation.

Irgy

Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 08:08

I don't think it's overthought so much as overexplained. The actual argument is pretty simple at its core:

1. You need to declare the action type before standing up.
2. You need to have the gaze skill to choose the gaze special action.
3. You don't have the skill until you stand up

(1) I think everyone agrees with.

(2) people argue but I think it's solid. The thing with 2 is that it's different from almost every other similar skill, because things like stab and throw team mate use one of the 7 standard action types, and just replace what you actually do with that action. You can, as far as I understand, waste your pass action by declaring a pass action with a no hands player if you want, and then just move but don't pass the ball because you don't have it. But you can't declare a gaze action with a human lineman at all, even to then just move and not gaze, because it's not a standard action. It doesn't come up because it doesn't matter but that's the way it's described.

(3) is the only place I think it falls down. The wording on being allowed to declare the action is "...Skills and Traits a player may possess that allow them to perform another, unique action...". As I said in discord, while prone you may not use the gaze action, but you still possess the gaze skill. So possessing the skill allows you to declare the action. You're not using the skill until after you get up.

cromag

Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 08:13

Nelphine wrote:

I would choose A.

The word 'possess' is used to indicate that someone with hypnotic gaze can use the hypnotic gaze special action.

This is different than the words called out in losing tackle zones that prevent using various skills when you have tackle zones. In particular losing tackle zones is never defined as causiing you to no longer possess the skill.

Therefore, while you cannot use various skills while you have no tackle zones, you do not lose the fact that you 'possess' that skill, which means you are still able to declare the action (and then other things happen, and you get your tackle zones back, and you do the other things allowed by the special action, so you are free to use the skill at the end of the action assuming the other conditions are met.)

TLDR: i disagree with your statement that needing to possess the skill to use the special action somehow implies you must be able to use the skill at time of activation.

Yes that's the core part of my ascertion that negates the rest of it. If you disagree with the way I interpret it.

My argument hinges on what I perceive as fact. That the book implies that you have to use a skill in order to declare a special action that is associated with that skill.

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Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 10:42

Everything but A is nonsense, and would break the rest of the game in a lot of ways

You can't use a skill while Prone, ok. But this does not mean you no longer have the skill

Grod

Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 11:01

Sounds like OP has a point to me. Kudos for actually reading the rules. There are some subtle differences in this editions rules that most of us ignore and assume it's the same game we've always played.

I don't know the answer, but I am far less quick to dismiss the question than some seem to be.

Edit: Actually I think ClayInfinity explains it well.

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Last edited by Grod on %b %16, %2024 - %11:%Jul; edited 1 time in total

Grod

Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 11:09

Can a hypnotically gazed bombardier throw a bomb?

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Candlejack

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 13:27

Grod wrote:

Can a hypnotically gazed bombardier throw a bomb?

Yes but that is irrelevant here. As long as you are standing all these issues do not exist as you regain tz when activated and thus can use all skills.

I honestly see how that argument about prone players can be made. I guess it all comes down to how "posses" is interpreted vs "able to use" in the context of being allowed to declare an action.

I feel like A is the intended version but as it often is the case there is no bullet proof argument for it.

For the fumbbl client I do not intend to change the current behavior until GW clarifies this.

IF people choose to follow the argument for B (C is definitely wrong as stated above) the the same would go for other special actions like chainsaw or vomit.

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cromag

Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 15:19

I think Chainsaw and Vomit have clauses for acting 'exactly like a blitz or block action's so I'd argue they are good. Bombardier is a good question but only relevant if you think Option C makes the most sense.

I think no changes are needed until they FAQ it.
It adds needlessly complex checks and balances.

I think I'm right though as it is written.

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Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 16:02

Nah. Per your own words, the simplest version is that A is correct. However, if you read the wording super exact, then we get the question of possibly solution B. However, if you read the wording super exact, then you must also read 'possess' super exact. And since that word doesnt come up in the descriptions of losing tackle zones, then a super exact reading cannot result in solution B.

Tldr:
Quick skim: solution A
Exacter reading: maybe solution B?
Super exact reading: cannot be solution B, back to solution A

Endrophil

Joined: Nov 16, 2015

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 18:21

Where is written that you cannot declare a hypno gaze Action when prone? The skill is used at the end of your activation.

Carthage

Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Posted: Jul 16, 2024 - 19:18

Igvy wrote:

Honestly I think you are over thinking this.

IMO you've mashed as much out of context wording as you could get, missed the flow and theme of how the game works. Clearly A

But hey, so long as your opponent agrees play with whatever rules you want.

TBH i didnt realise vamps needed a nerf.

When vamps get to high TV they get kind of unstoppable. So late in long seasons, or in perpetual environments like [C] they can get out of control because they have a unique aspect that no other team can replicate. Kind of why chorfs were a problem in the claw-pomb era, the claws set them apart from other bash teams and allowed them to dominate the matchups at high TV