Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2025 - 16:03 |
 
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Thought I'd get the ball rolling with TS...
This isn't the thread for discussing if TS is a good idea, that thread is this one: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=777942#777941 along with the other suggestions.
This is to discuss different TS formulas and their possible implementation for Blackbox to stop some of the more exgregious match ups etc...
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The purpose of TS is to give you an indication of how strong a team is and provide fair match ups.
Here is the first pass at it. There are 3 points I need to finish, but I've ran out of time today.
1: there should be a TS Reserves modification formula like there used to be, but I can't remember it right now nor do I know where on the site it is.
2: the final part would be how to implement TS with the Blackbox Scheduler forumla... This is on Git Hub, but again I've ran out of time to look for it. But in short, the idea of using TS for match ups would mean the number of games a team has played and the season they're in should be irrelevant. so those protections should be removed.
The protections I would like to keep in the forumla are the slight adjustments around Mirror matches and also maintaing the part of the formula that makes playing against the same coach two games running less likely.
3. As well as the using this updated version of TS. There would need to be some TS adjustments in the formula to account for specific TV differences. For example the difference between 40 TV difference and 50TV is substantial because one allows you to get a Keg. Similarly a TV difference of 140k and 150k is huge because one allows you to get a wizard. So the formula would need to select match ups more favourably that avoid wizards.... But I'll think about that properly later.. |
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Last edited by Garion on Apr 13, 2025; edited 2 times in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 13, 2025 - 16:03 |
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First work out the Player’s cost
Player Cost
A player’s base value starts at 5.
Player cost cannot be less than 1.
sorry, not sure how to do tables on the forum, here is an image
Once you’ve calculated the player’s stat line next make adjustments for their skills. These are split into skill tiers. (Stat increases incur further costs, even though already costed in the table above.. If you don’t understand why, then sorry I can’t help you  )
S Tier: These skills add 3 each to the player value, plus add 1 for every 3 instances of that skills in the team (e.g. if a team has 6 block it adds and additional 2etc..) :
Ag+, Ma+, St+,
Block
Dodge
Guard
Mighty Blow
Tier A: These skills add 3 each to the player value at first selection, then subsequent inclusion in the team is valued at the corresponding number in brackets:
Kick (0.5)
Leader (0.5)
Tackle (1)
Sure Hands (1)
Tier B: These skills add 2 each to the player value:
Brawler
Break Tackle
Claws
Dauntless
Defensive
Dirty Player
Diving Tackle
Frenzy
Grab
Juggernaut
Jump Up
Pass
Pro
Side Step
Sneaky Git
Stand Firm
Strip Ball
Sure Feet
Tentacles
Two Heads
Wrestle
Tier C: These skills add 1 each to the player value:
AV+
Accurate
Big Hand
Catch
Extra Arms
Fend
Foul Appearance
Fumblerooskie
Horns
Iron Hard Skin
Leap
Monstrous Mouth
On the Ball
Prehensile Tail
Shadowing
Sprint
Thick Skull
Tier D: These skills add 0.5 each to the player value:
Pa+
Arm Bar
Cannoneer
Cloud Burster
Disturbing Presence
Diving Catch
Dump Off
Hail Mary Pass
Nerves of Steel
Pile Driver
Running Pass
Safe Pair of Hands
Safe Pass
Strong Arm
Very Long Legs
Extraordinary Skills: These skills are valued at 0 unless otherwise stated
Always Hungry
Animal Savagery (-2)
Animosity
Ball and Chain
Blood Lust (-2)
Bombardier
Bone Head (-2)
Breathe Fire (0.5)
Chainsaw
Decay
Drunkard
Hit and Run (2)
Hypnotic Gaze (3)
Kick Team Mate (1)
Loner (-1)
My Ball (-0.5)
No Hands (-2)
Pick Me Up (2)
Plague Ridden
Pogo Stick (2)
Projective Vomit (1)
Really Stupid (-3)
Regeneration (1)
Right Stuff
Secret Weapon (this is zero as there is no cost for the weapons above, the weapons and Secret weapon cancel each other out)
Stab (2)
Stunty
Take Root (-4)
Throw Team Mate
Timmm-ber!
Titchy (1)
Trickster (1)
Unchanneled Fury (-3)
Adjustments
Block and Dodge: 1, and 1 for every 3 instances in your team of this combo
Wrodge: 1
Wrestle and Strip Ball: 1
Sure Feet and Sprint: 1
Block and Stand Firm: 1
Blodge and Side Step: 1
Blodge, Side Step and Diving Tackle: 1
Block, Mighty Blow and Tackle: 1
Dirty Player and Sneaky Git: 2
Claws and Mighty Blow: 1
Stunty, Right stuff, and M6 or better and ag2+ or better: 2
Pro and Hypnotic Gaze: 1
Jump Up Ag3 or worse+: -1
Jump Up Av7+ or worse: -1
Animosity and Pass: -1
Animosity: -1 from the team's TS total if Animosity is on one or more player in the team
Throw Team Mate and one player on the team with Right Stuff: 1
Regeneration and St4+: 2
Injuries: For stat reductions, check to see if there is a corresponding +stat skill. If so then the effect of it is removed (player value is reduced by 1)
Niggles have no in game consequences so are valued at 0
After working out the players value apply the following rule.
• If the player value is 1.5 or less, set player value to 1.5
• If the player is missing the game entirely, set player value to 0.
Then Add all your players TS together to get the Sum of individual Player values .
Staff
• Apothecary 3
• Necromancer 1
• Number of Re-rolls*5
• Number of Assistant Coaches+Cheerleaders/4
Reserves adjustment
• We need an adjustment for reserves. I forget the formula that we used to use…. But I think it would do the job again. It used to be adding all the active players av and ag together, then divided by something…. Hmm can’t quite remember, please help me here 😊
The Final TS:
• Sum of individual player values + Staff + Reserves Adjustment
• Round this up to the nearest whole number.
TBC |
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Last edited by Garion on Apr 14, 2025; edited 17 times in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 13, 2025 - 16:04 |
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reserved |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2025 - 09:57 |
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So, the main shortage here is that skills are worth different amounts on different stat bases.
Block is like 20k on ST 3, and 40k on ST 5. Is it 10k on ST 2? Probably, 0k on ST 1? Close enough when blodge combo is +10k.
Tackle is way better on MA 7+ than on MA 4, I'd prefer tackle on two wolves to tackle on four zombies on a necro team, though both is better again. Say, half MA -1, 10k on MA 4, 20k on MA 6, 30k on MA 8, nothing on a treeman? Close, but it's also better on ST 4+ and worse on ST 2 though.
Tackle is also worth nothing if the other team has no dodge.
Wrestle is better if the other team has lots of block, it's not better on strong players or fast ones.
Guard is better on ST 4+ and with Stand Firm and with Block, but it's kinda weak on S3 with no other skills.
MB is better on ST 4+ and on MA 7+ and on AG 2+ and with Block, and is barely a 20k skill with none of those.
But now, ST 4 players paying more for the skills they all take, it's wrong. They're not that good without skills, so -10k to the base cost there.
And then, like, Dodge is worse on AG 3+, than on a 2+ team, and better on faster players, and better on ST 4+.
Stand Firm is far better on high armour and strong players, it makes Side Step and Fend worse.
Pro is excellent on any negatrait, and with MB. Pro on Ogre easily worth 40k. It's probably only 10k on a typical lino though, maybe more with wrestle or dauntless.
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I feel like this just goes on and on, every skill varies, dauntless worth slightly less when you're stronger, and is better with Block or Wrestle.
Brawler is like, any loner without brawler or pro or block or wrestle is worse, and it's otherwise half the value of Block. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 14, 2025 - 10:09 |
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Thanks Tussock  Don't agree with every example you give but yes good feedback on the whole. Covering every eventuality is probably not possible, and some combo gains or loses are so small they aren't worth adjustments, like I could cost pass differently for different Pa players etc... but no one will ever take Pass as a skill, other than perhaps a thrower that doesnt start with it like the Dark Elf Runner. And I think the value add or certain stats, Ag2+ and St4 etc... already accounts for the increased cost in some instances that you site. I'm also not sure about Pa... i think its relevance is even less than currently costed.
I'm just running further tests to get the big guys 'S' correct, and add more 'Pro combo taxes' for sure. I'll have it updated later with some adjustments |
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BeanBelly
Joined: Nov 14, 2019
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2025 - 14:57 |
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For me, and probably lots others, it’s just so hard to envision this without examples; like a tool I could run my teams through and consider the resulting TS values.
Looks like a thoughtful and thorough investigation though, well done. |
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Painting myself into a corner |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2025 - 15:19 |
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| BeanBelly wrote: | For me, and probably lots others, it’s just so hard to envision this without examples; like a tool I could run my teams through and consider the resulting TS values.
Looks like a thoughtful and thorough investigation though, well done. |
I'm working on it and it's not exactly right yet... but getting closer to what I would like |
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