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2008-11-19 21:31:24
35 votes, rating 4.2
35 votes, rating 4.2
feelings on BR exclusion
i was posting this in the forum petition for TS-only BBox but then wondered whether it wasn't quite on-topic enough. so i moved it here. though it seems likely to me that the people who i would be most interested in having read this are unlikely to. dilemma.
as a newer coach, here's my response:
no, i don't particularly want to play coaches with a CR significantly higher than mine, with or without a TS advantage. i'd prefer team-even matches, but playing a game where i'm significantly outcoached really doesn't teach me anything. it's hard to learn much of anything when your entire team spends the entire game either flat on the pitch or in the dugout.
the implementation of Blackbox is exactly the way i've played [R]. i have always just put up my teams, and accepted the first offer that came to me, without looking at the team or the coach. i was having a great time, despite many losses. then i played a game where i was down 30CR. never have i felt so impotent. it was very humbling, he was clearly a much better player than i, and his turns were taking ¼ the time mine were. but learn anything? how can you learn anything when you can't -do- anything? try playing a game of tennis vs Agassi, and i bet the only thing you'll learn is not to play Agassi.
i did receive some advice regarding that match. the advice i got was: check CR before accepting the game. i acknowledged the advice, but declined; in my ideal, that isn't something that i want to do. however, in practice, i really don't want to play another game like that again, either. i'd prefer to learn a bit from playing comparable coaches, and improve to a point where i can hold my own well enough that i -CAN- learn from playing against the best coaches. right now, i can't, and it's my opinion that most people arguing that "new coaches won't learn anything unless they play the best coaches with even teams" are overestimating how educational such a match would be.
i really didn't expect for that loss to have a lasting effect on me; i tend to be pretty "take it as it comes" and "do the best you can with what you've got"... but it's been 3½ weeks now since i've played at all, and that experience is the only reason for it that i can come up with.
So the ultimate question is do the newer coaches want to play the experienced coaches only with a TS advantage? Long term, it cheapens these matches. The newer coaches aren't learning anything, and the pros will just point out "the only reason you won was that 20 TS advantage". If the matches are fair TS wise, then at least the lower CR/BR coach can earn their win knowing it was deserved. They also will learn a whole lot more.
as a newer coach, here's my response:
no, i don't particularly want to play coaches with a CR significantly higher than mine, with or without a TS advantage. i'd prefer team-even matches, but playing a game where i'm significantly outcoached really doesn't teach me anything. it's hard to learn much of anything when your entire team spends the entire game either flat on the pitch or in the dugout.
the implementation of Blackbox is exactly the way i've played [R]. i have always just put up my teams, and accepted the first offer that came to me, without looking at the team or the coach. i was having a great time, despite many losses. then i played a game where i was down 30CR. never have i felt so impotent. it was very humbling, he was clearly a much better player than i, and his turns were taking ¼ the time mine were. but learn anything? how can you learn anything when you can't -do- anything? try playing a game of tennis vs Agassi, and i bet the only thing you'll learn is not to play Agassi.
i did receive some advice regarding that match. the advice i got was: check CR before accepting the game. i acknowledged the advice, but declined; in my ideal, that isn't something that i want to do. however, in practice, i really don't want to play another game like that again, either. i'd prefer to learn a bit from playing comparable coaches, and improve to a point where i can hold my own well enough that i -CAN- learn from playing against the best coaches. right now, i can't, and it's my opinion that most people arguing that "new coaches won't learn anything unless they play the best coaches with even teams" are overestimating how educational such a match would be.
i really didn't expect for that loss to have a lasting effect on me; i tend to be pretty "take it as it comes" and "do the best you can with what you've got"... but it's been 3½ weeks now since i've played at all, and that experience is the only reason for it that i can come up with.
Comments
Posted by Calcium on 2008-11-19 22:15:19
And the last opponent you played was EMPHASY. Why am I not suprised?
Don't let this uber picka put you off mate, your blog made for intresting reading, as does Jan's overall argument. I personally don't care about CR/BR/RSVP/ASAP or any other abbreviations there are floating around in fumbbl at the moment. I will be a [B] regular, throwing my Khemri + 2 human teams in to the pot + playing what comes out.
Don't let this uber picka put you off mate, your blog made for intresting reading, as does Jan's overall argument. I personally don't care about CR/BR/RSVP/ASAP or any other abbreviations there are floating around in fumbbl at the moment. I will be a [B] regular, throwing my Khemri + 2 human teams in to the pot + playing what comes out.
Posted by seanh1986 on 2008-11-20 06:41:43
I can understand that getting the crap beat out of you is hardly fun, but what might be more fun is spectating games between coaches with high CR's, particularly lower TR games. The higher the TR the more skills are present the more complicated the scenarios and the less likely you are to gain any "fundamental" skills.
When the players have far fewer skills it's easier to follow whats going on.
Some key points that are essential (Perhaps you are an expert in these already... I don't know since I've never played you)
* Getting 2 dice hits when it is possible... Too many times newer players settle for 1 die hits when they could just as easily take 2.
* Order of operations... The order in which you attempt your actions can greatly affect the game. One problem a lot of less experienced players have is they only plan for the best case scenario (and often that works) instead of planing for the worst case scenario (and/or weighting the two).
For example, if all u need is a 2+ with a RR and you're in an amazing position but a fail and you're screwed well you're probably pretty well off (35 out of 36 times) but often you can easily move players without rolling dice which don't change your odds of success but ensure that IF you do fail it won't be catastrophic.
Those are some of the key things to observe when watching more experienced coaches play... Doing those kinds of things doesn't make you immune to bad dice but it makes any particular dice roll hurt you less and gives you more opportunity to make rolls (In general)
Hope this was of some help
When the players have far fewer skills it's easier to follow whats going on.
Some key points that are essential (Perhaps you are an expert in these already... I don't know since I've never played you)
* Getting 2 dice hits when it is possible... Too many times newer players settle for 1 die hits when they could just as easily take 2.
* Order of operations... The order in which you attempt your actions can greatly affect the game. One problem a lot of less experienced players have is they only plan for the best case scenario (and often that works) instead of planing for the worst case scenario (and/or weighting the two).
For example, if all u need is a 2+ with a RR and you're in an amazing position but a fail and you're screwed well you're probably pretty well off (35 out of 36 times) but often you can easily move players without rolling dice which don't change your odds of success but ensure that IF you do fail it won't be catastrophic.
Those are some of the key things to observe when watching more experienced coaches play... Doing those kinds of things doesn't make you immune to bad dice but it makes any particular dice roll hurt you less and gives you more opportunity to make rolls (In general)
Hope this was of some help
Posted by Unforseen on 2008-11-20 06:51:27
Great post and I think it summarizes my thoughts on it.
No one can tell me that all the top CR/BR coaches on this site are positive supporting and helpful when putting the boots to other opponents. Honestly I wouldn't expect them to be, it's not like it's their job to teach people to play this game, and because of that fact I don't think we can assume that people are learning much from getting the crap kicked out them. Some people on this site are uber competitive. If the system has them beat each other silly I'm okay with that.
No one can tell me that all the top CR/BR coaches on this site are positive supporting and helpful when putting the boots to other opponents. Honestly I wouldn't expect them to be, it's not like it's their job to teach people to play this game, and because of that fact I don't think we can assume that people are learning much from getting the crap kicked out them. Some people on this site are uber competitive. If the system has them beat each other silly I'm okay with that.
Posted by JanMattys on 2008-11-20 10:00:33
I like this post.
I totally disagree on the conclusions, but I like how it's put down on paper and I think it makes some important points.
All I can say is that I DO have become better by watching HOW my ass was handed to me. I've come to notice how the positioning of my opponent was so much better than mine, I've seen how he was getting 2d all the way and all I could do as my first action was a 4+ dodge...
My start on Fumbbl was 0/1/19 (just so you know), but then I improved. Slowly, but I improved. And I improved by LOSING. And by playing whatever was coming my way. Vs better coaches.
I understand your feeling and your points, PTGMach. I really, really do.
I just think that your conclusion is wrong. It takes time to get better, but there's no other way to finally reach the Big Guys on their level. If you play against similar coaches, you get to feel better than you really are, you get overconfident, you get bad habits (and got knows it's HARD to lose them once you get them), and it won't make any good to your BB.
The point is: are you interested in getting better? If the answer is Yes, then there's no better way than the real way, believe me. If the answer is "no, I just want some relaxed fun", then fine, but probably DivB is just not your thing.
Hope to have made some sense. If you feel like you want to discuss more, feel free to PM me.
I totally disagree on the conclusions, but I like how it's put down on paper and I think it makes some important points.
All I can say is that I DO have become better by watching HOW my ass was handed to me. I've come to notice how the positioning of my opponent was so much better than mine, I've seen how he was getting 2d all the way and all I could do as my first action was a 4+ dodge...
My start on Fumbbl was 0/1/19 (just so you know), but then I improved. Slowly, but I improved. And I improved by LOSING. And by playing whatever was coming my way. Vs better coaches.
I understand your feeling and your points, PTGMach. I really, really do.
I just think that your conclusion is wrong. It takes time to get better, but there's no other way to finally reach the Big Guys on their level. If you play against similar coaches, you get to feel better than you really are, you get overconfident, you get bad habits (and got knows it's HARD to lose them once you get them), and it won't make any good to your BB.
The point is: are you interested in getting better? If the answer is Yes, then there's no better way than the real way, believe me. If the answer is "no, I just want some relaxed fun", then fine, but probably DivB is just not your thing.
Hope to have made some sense. If you feel like you want to discuss more, feel free to PM me.
Posted by Vol on 2008-11-20 13:09:08
Unforseen, trust me, I can find high ranked coaches who are arses. Yes, I will admit, the majority of the high ranking may be nice. But, the majority of FUMBBL coaches, who may be nice in table top, are arses online with the anonymity of internet. And you can't tell me that some of those arses haven't fought their way up.
JanMattys, I have to disagree that [B]lackbox is not for the casual player. I think the entire point behind [B] is to avoid the cherry-picking, gotta-win attitude of [R]anked. In [B], you can't pick your opponent, you just play. And there are no tourneys to worry about, no TR caps you are trying to reach.
The two races I've entered into [R] are my two races that I enjoy playing and have the most success with. The race that I've entered into [B] so far, is a race that I've never played and don't think fits my style.
AND... my [B] team suffered to fatalities in their first match. I imagine most coaches would've retired that team and started again. I don't get why one would do that. I haven't. It'll be a long time until they win, and my BR will drop, I'm sure.
My only active [L]eague team is Norse, so I'm used to playing teams that can't possibly win and end a match with more people dead and injured that not.
I don't mind if BR is in the [B] scheduler, but I don't see the point.
JanMattys, I have to disagree that [B]lackbox is not for the casual player. I think the entire point behind [B] is to avoid the cherry-picking, gotta-win attitude of [R]anked. In [B], you can't pick your opponent, you just play. And there are no tourneys to worry about, no TR caps you are trying to reach.
The two races I've entered into [R] are my two races that I enjoy playing and have the most success with. The race that I've entered into [B] so far, is a race that I've never played and don't think fits my style.
AND... my [B] team suffered to fatalities in their first match. I imagine most coaches would've retired that team and started again. I don't get why one would do that. I haven't. It'll be a long time until they win, and my BR will drop, I'm sure.
My only active [L]eague team is Norse, so I'm used to playing teams that can't possibly win and end a match with more people dead and injured that not.
I don't mind if BR is in the [B] scheduler, but I don't see the point.