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2010-01-13 19:04:17
37 votes, rating 3.4
37 votes, rating 3.4
Bloodbowl and Poker
I admit I play a ton of online poker, so seeing the similarities between BB and Poker are inevitable..
- "It's all luck!" I hear that at the tables (BB and Poker), but in reality, the same guys seem to get 'lucky' all the time! ODD! True there's times when you can do nothing when you Aces get cracked or you get triple skulls with a re-roll. It happens!
- "Play the same, regardless of the cash in front of you" The same can be applied to BB. I was sooo worried about getting my little woodies crushed, I played to keep them 'safe'. But they're pixels! I oddly learned this lesson playing my Amazon team vs Ogres. I had to put them in 'danger' to win the game. Lesson learned! Playing good poker is all about dissociation between money with chips. Chips are just the things you play with. Pixels is all we are moving around.
- The universal law of poker is this; you play perfectly as though you could see all the cards. Anytime you deviate from the perfect play, you are losing money. In BB it's even more obvious to 'see' the right play, but it doesn't just seem to pan out that way! (Because I'm a noob and....
- Eventually you'll see the same hands play out the same way over and over with small variation. I think BB is the same way. The same block situations, the same pass, rush situations, kicking etc. I swear I only seem to play about 20 different hands in poker, they all seem to play out exactly the same even though there's an infinite variety to them. I just gotta learn the BB 'way' and I will see the same patterns! EASIER SAID THAN DONE! I've played very few games of bloodbowl, in contrast to the 100,000+ hands of poker I've played. It will probably take about 2000+ games to get 'good' at Bloodbowl. Yikes!
Sorry for the heavy post!
- "It's all luck!" I hear that at the tables (BB and Poker), but in reality, the same guys seem to get 'lucky' all the time! ODD! True there's times when you can do nothing when you Aces get cracked or you get triple skulls with a re-roll. It happens!
- "Play the same, regardless of the cash in front of you" The same can be applied to BB. I was sooo worried about getting my little woodies crushed, I played to keep them 'safe'. But they're pixels! I oddly learned this lesson playing my Amazon team vs Ogres. I had to put them in 'danger' to win the game. Lesson learned! Playing good poker is all about dissociation between money with chips. Chips are just the things you play with. Pixels is all we are moving around.
- The universal law of poker is this; you play perfectly as though you could see all the cards. Anytime you deviate from the perfect play, you are losing money. In BB it's even more obvious to 'see' the right play, but it doesn't just seem to pan out that way! (Because I'm a noob and....
- Eventually you'll see the same hands play out the same way over and over with small variation. I think BB is the same way. The same block situations, the same pass, rush situations, kicking etc. I swear I only seem to play about 20 different hands in poker, they all seem to play out exactly the same even though there's an infinite variety to them. I just gotta learn the BB 'way' and I will see the same patterns! EASIER SAID THAN DONE! I've played very few games of bloodbowl, in contrast to the 100,000+ hands of poker I've played. It will probably take about 2000+ games to get 'good' at Bloodbowl. Yikes!
Sorry for the heavy post!
Comments
Posted by maysrill on 2010-01-13 19:24:50
I've been trying to skill up the same pair of 4's for about six hands now, but they keep dropping the chips.
(and those jerks who foul on the river...don't get me started...)
(and those jerks who foul on the river...don't get me started...)
Posted by Purplegoo on 2010-01-13 19:51:31
I've always hated the BB / poker analogy.
If I get 2 / 7 every hand, I can still win in poker.
With skulls and ones, I cannot.
And so it goes on...
Just equating game a that involves some luck with game b that also involves some is a bit lazy. Vive la difference!
If I get 2 / 7 every hand, I can still win in poker.
With skulls and ones, I cannot.
And so it goes on...
Just equating game a that involves some luck with game b that also involves some is a bit lazy. Vive la difference!
Posted by Juff on 2010-01-13 20:01:49
I posit that it is entirely possible to win a BB game rolling nothing but ones.
Posted by koga49 on 2010-01-13 20:06:57
agree with purplegoo I've played both they are risk management games but the risk the strategy involved differs.
bb is risk management - you find the path/strategy that allows for the least possible chance of failure and a really good player can quickly calculate the chance and even plan 3 or 4 turns ahead minimising low risk. however risk is never reduced to nothing in important situations variable factors - opponent and die have bearing on the result but ultimately the die are the most important factor.
Good poker players calculate odds of success/failure but are not establishing strategy over a long game based on probability the long term strategy in poker is based on bluff and reading their opponent. the opponent is the most important factor.
two different kinds of risk management games.
bb is risk management - you find the path/strategy that allows for the least possible chance of failure and a really good player can quickly calculate the chance and even plan 3 or 4 turns ahead minimising low risk. however risk is never reduced to nothing in important situations variable factors - opponent and die have bearing on the result but ultimately the die are the most important factor.
Good poker players calculate odds of success/failure but are not establishing strategy over a long game based on probability the long term strategy in poker is based on bluff and reading their opponent. the opponent is the most important factor.
two different kinds of risk management games.
Posted by Calthor on 2010-01-13 20:07:22
@Juff,
You'd need a touchback or at least one good die roll though to get the ball for that touchdown to win the game with.
You'd need a touchback or at least one good die roll though to get the ball for that touchdown to win the game with.
Posted by Juff on 2010-01-13 20:13:50
I know Calthor ;) Touchback most definitely required for the win when rolling nowt but ones.
You'd also need your oppo to play terribly and roll terribly too.
To be honest, you have no real chance of winning drawing nothing but seven-deuce.
Bluffing will take you so far in a tourney before the blinds force confrontation. In a cash game, you lose money (on average) every time you play 7-2 (or fold it from the blinds).
You'd also need your oppo to play terribly and roll terribly too.
To be honest, you have no real chance of winning drawing nothing but seven-deuce.
Bluffing will take you so far in a tourney before the blinds force confrontation. In a cash game, you lose money (on average) every time you play 7-2 (or fold it from the blinds).
Posted by maysrill on 2010-01-13 20:26:02
The main differnce, luck-wise, between poker and BB is that the margin of error in poker is much smaller. You're counting on statistical methods to see that over time, your sound strategy pays off.
Where in BB you might consider a 5/6 chance to be a risky play, poker often has margins of error in the 52-55% range.
Where in BB you might consider a 5/6 chance to be a risky play, poker often has margins of error in the 52-55% range.
Posted by PainState on 2010-01-13 22:54:47
The only comparison I agree with when it comes to poker and blood bowl is this. They both have the capacity to drive you insane with on flip of the card on the river or one roll of a D6 with reroll and blow it.
Both events will cause a grown man to moan, cry, go on a fit of rage or just quit.
Case in point. Read all the threads/blogs on rants about bad luck in blood bowl or sit at the bar at a poker tournament and just listen to the rants about "donkeys" knocking out the kings of texas hold em when they "out" the king on the second hand going all in with a 7-2.
Both events will cause a grown man to moan, cry, go on a fit of rage or just quit.
Case in point. Read all the threads/blogs on rants about bad luck in blood bowl or sit at the bar at a poker tournament and just listen to the rants about "donkeys" knocking out the kings of texas hold em when they "out" the king on the second hand going all in with a 7-2.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2010-01-13 23:33:23
Welcome back Peter_Thorpe?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2010-01-13 23:35:07
Also putting Amazons against Ogres is hardly "putting them in danger".
Posted by KJG on 2010-01-13 23:51:49
It does not take 2000+ games to get good at BB. It takes a while to learn all the rules for all the players. But if you play soundly in-game, then you'll get pretty far. However, what makes the main difference between bad players and good, imo, is how you create your team and then how you manage it. Admittedly, some of it is also how you cherry pick, but that's naturally only important in R. I'd say good team management is what one needs to really master. Before many games you can usually quite easily see which team has the biggest chance of winning. Of course, the extremely unbalanced handicap system of LRB4 tends to turn things upside down every now and then, but many games are decided more or less, even before they have been played. BB is a very predictable game.
Posted by bxnyc on 2010-01-14 04:29:13
nuffle pays in spades.
Posted by peikko on 2010-01-14 09:10:34
"Play the same, regardless of the cash in front of you" is as much true as "Play the same, regardless of how many players you have left on field"
Both are FAEL.
Both are FAEL.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2010-01-14 13:08:34
One of the big differences is that it's hard for a good player to get lucky in BB, if you are good you can only really be unlucky. I get less pissed off losing money in poker than losing a game of BB cos a good player can get lucky in poker as well as unlucky.