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2015-11-05 17:19:33
4 votes, rating 3.5
4 votes, rating 3.5
Kick or Receive?
So it's generally accepted that as a bash team you want to receive, so you can get the free three blocks on the LOS.
I primarily play skaven, and my understanding with a team like them (or wood elves) is that if I have a kicker, I want to kick first. That way I can play defence with a full squad, maximizing my chances of popping the ball loose, and either preventing a score or even getting a defensive TD myself. This has worked pretty well for me in the past, but I've also found (perhaps just a recent bad streak) the team gets worn out on that first (and second) defensive drive, and by the time the second half and my offence comes around I have so few players left that my opponent turning it over and scoring twice is a very distinct possibility.
I see the value in playing defence with a full roster however, which presents an alternative. Elect to receive, try to score in two turns to minimize the blocks taken (in a perfect world, I take exactly one block from the blitz), and then just play the last 6 turns of the half as if I just picked to kick.
Is this reliable enough to be better than just kicking to my opponent? Do you (agile teams) just choose to receive like a basher team and play out the 2-1 grind? Do you just never win the coin toss?
I primarily play skaven, and my understanding with a team like them (or wood elves) is that if I have a kicker, I want to kick first. That way I can play defence with a full squad, maximizing my chances of popping the ball loose, and either preventing a score or even getting a defensive TD myself. This has worked pretty well for me in the past, but I've also found (perhaps just a recent bad streak) the team gets worn out on that first (and second) defensive drive, and by the time the second half and my offence comes around I have so few players left that my opponent turning it over and scoring twice is a very distinct possibility.
I see the value in playing defence with a full roster however, which presents an alternative. Elect to receive, try to score in two turns to minimize the blocks taken (in a perfect world, I take exactly one block from the blitz), and then just play the last 6 turns of the half as if I just picked to kick.
Is this reliable enough to be better than just kicking to my opponent? Do you (agile teams) just choose to receive like a basher team and play out the 2-1 grind? Do you just never win the coin toss?
Comments
Posted by Roland on 2015-11-05 18:00:27
Receive if i face an 11 mam apo team.
Kick otherwise unless WMD's
Kick otherwise unless WMD's
Posted by licker on 2015-11-05 18:12:08
What you suggest doing is not the worst idea, I frequently do it with my L DE team, just because in some matchups I'd rather take the 'certain' 2 turn TD to start the game, than bank on stopping them and having a team left to do anything beyond score once in the 2nd half and still lose 2-1.
In fact I nearly never choose to kick with any of my teams, though I see the logic in it for certain matchups, I just don't seem to have faced many of those matchups :)
I think you're almost better off choosing to kick vs. non bash than you are vs. bash, but exact team designs and coaching abilities come into play so it's not a totally black and white question.
If I think I'm going to have a largely full roster for the 2nd half, I'd rather have the ball 1st in the 1st half and see what happens there. If I think I'm going to likely be playing with 8 or fewer vs. 11 in the second half I'd rather have the ball first anyway and hope it was 1-0 at half so I can hang on for a draw or sneak a 2-1 somehow.
I desperately hate being down 1-0 at half and getting the ball, no matter how many players I have.
In fact I nearly never choose to kick with any of my teams, though I see the logic in it for certain matchups, I just don't seem to have faced many of those matchups :)
I think you're almost better off choosing to kick vs. non bash than you are vs. bash, but exact team designs and coaching abilities come into play so it's not a totally black and white question.
If I think I'm going to have a largely full roster for the 2nd half, I'd rather have the ball 1st in the 1st half and see what happens there. If I think I'm going to likely be playing with 8 or fewer vs. 11 in the second half I'd rather have the ball first anyway and hope it was 1-0 at half so I can hang on for a draw or sneak a 2-1 somehow.
I desperately hate being down 1-0 at half and getting the ball, no matter how many players I have.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-11-05 19:57:02
Wasn't this a topic last week?
Posted by Antithesisoftime on 2015-11-06 00:35:10
If you can one-turn with any regularity, kick.
It's easier to one turn in turn 8 than it is in turn 16 if you're getting bashed to death.
If you're bash heavy, take the ball first, force the quick score in the second half, and grind to 2-1
It's easier to one turn in turn 8 than it is in turn 16 if you're getting bashed to death.
If you're bash heavy, take the ball first, force the quick score in the second half, and grind to 2-1
Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-11-06 01:39:15
hmmmmmmmm
Posted by Grod on 2015-11-06 03:03:22
I think you are better of taking 4-5 turns to score vs slower teams. Either they will need to take risks to equalise in first half giving you a chance to go 2-0 up or they play it safe and you are still 1-0 at half time. Also consider the number of rerolls you and opponent still have when deciding to score. If your opponent is low or out of them, its a good opportunity to go for a turnover TD and play more aggressively.
Posted by xerode on 2015-11-06 15:57:44
I pretty much always kick first.
Agility vs. Bash, you want a full side to defend with, like you said.
Bash vs. Agility, as most Agility players would prefer to do the above, you kick to deny them this and hopefully force them into scoring quickly so you can 2-1 grind.
Now, the next question is wether to kick short or long. It depends on the team match up but I generally kick short.
Vs. Bash, they generally expect you to kick long. Their ball carriers will be out of position and it forces them to try and cage up on one side rather than give them the choice. With the ball so close to the opponent then they have to heavily commit to make sure the ball doesn't get threatened.
Vs. Agility they have to make sure the ball gets safely back to their thrower/ball carrier and they can always fumble...
Plus you can always pray for a Blitz on the kick-off table!
Agility vs. Bash, you want a full side to defend with, like you said.
Bash vs. Agility, as most Agility players would prefer to do the above, you kick to deny them this and hopefully force them into scoring quickly so you can 2-1 grind.
Now, the next question is wether to kick short or long. It depends on the team match up but I generally kick short.
Vs. Bash, they generally expect you to kick long. Their ball carriers will be out of position and it forces them to try and cage up on one side rather than give them the choice. With the ball so close to the opponent then they have to heavily commit to make sure the ball doesn't get threatened.
Vs. Agility they have to make sure the ball gets safely back to their thrower/ball carrier and they can always fumble...
Plus you can always pray for a Blitz on the kick-off table!
Posted by Rags on 2015-11-06 22:08:04
I agree with Zeroed that short or long kick is as big a consideration. I usually favour short for the reasons already stated plus opportunities to seize possession in a variety if they fumble pick up and/or with fast players close to LOS armed with skills like Strip Ball, Wrestle, and Tackle. Dump off, Nerves of Steel, and Sidestep can also make all the difference. If you do steal ball near LOS you might well be vulnerable to blitz next turn, but sometimes you can pass back into your own half get it to relative safety that way.
Swift teams are always under pressure of attrition by bash teams. As I see it, how they can turn the tables is by scoring on opponents drive, especially if they can get 2 ahead. Then the bash teams are under pressure to score to have a chance of winning or drawing, and are no longer as free to inflict the grind/attrition. They are forced to try quicker, riskier plays, which can again leave opportunities for swift team to get the ball again, ratcheting up the pressure once more...
Swift teams are always under pressure of attrition by bash teams. As I see it, how they can turn the tables is by scoring on opponents drive, especially if they can get 2 ahead. Then the bash teams are under pressure to score to have a chance of winning or drawing, and are no longer as free to inflict the grind/attrition. They are forced to try quicker, riskier plays, which can again leave opportunities for swift team to get the ball again, ratcheting up the pressure once more...
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-11-07 02:06:42
Generally I prefer to kick, but sometimes it might be better to receive (when I'm playing Goblins and Norse, for example).