Posted by TheDarkFlame on 2011-11-17 02:19:56
...Is it really a rule? I've always thought of it as a mere suggestion. Something along the lines of "Okay, it's been four minutes now. If you think he's just wasting your time, rather than trying to coordinate his team, then hey, you can end his turn here and now." But I practically never use it myself. It seems unsporting and inconsiderate to do so, and that's not what Blood Bowl is about.
Posted by Halflingdave on 2011-11-17 02:24:13
To solve your probelm of people using AFK as extra time to think could we not progeam a afk button that blocks the pitch from view if you push it? i know a few online games that do this in a time sensitive situation.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-17 02:47:53
The whole blank screen thing is a bit pointless cos all u need to do is take a screenshot before u press the button.
I did read all of this post and must say it seems a pretty good idea.
Posted by Sigmar1 on 2011-11-17 03:06:58
Very thoughtful and well presented post. I concur that an 'overall' time clock could alleviate many of the time management issues noted. I for one almost never hit the End Turn button as I generally appreciate the consideration given when I rarely go over the limit.
Of course, some would remain no matter what (ie. the 'Oh crap my kid just threw up all over my other kid! Be back in 30 min.) The overall clock just can't respond to those kinds of occurances unless you allow for its disabling or the affected coach just knows if any real life event pops up the consequences of going over time will occur.
My question however: what happens when the overall time expires? Do you automatically lose the game? Does the immediate turn end and then you play the rest with a vastly reduced time allowance per turn?
Posted by Irgy on 2011-11-17 03:25:26
My best suggestion for what happens when it runs out is to take a step back and actually implement the timing even more like chess - have an initial starting time, then add, say, 1 or 2 minutes on each turn. Then, when people run out of time the turn just ends automatically (ideally with an audible count-down). But rather than creating a fairly degenerate situation of many consecutive turns ending automatically, people still have their new 1 or 2 minutes to play out the remaining turns quickly. They're stuck with some of the same problems of time-per-turn again but they've only got themselves to blame for being so slow earlier.
As far as very long interruptions go, there's already a solution. It's called "save and quit", and it's implemented with a button with an 'X' on it in the top right corner. It already pauses the game and blanks out the game board. I'm not advocating intentional disconnection, and certainly not without explanation, I'm just saying a 30 minute interruption can be handled the same way as "I have to go to work, can we finish the game tomorrow".
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-17 04:40:09
Awsome blog, best one on this flavour of the month topic.
Sigmar1: that as Irgy points out would be classed as a real life emergency. In whic case you explain as much as you can to your opponent (time permitting) and then disconnect.
H.E.M: Your points were discussed on the forums yesterday/today.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-11-17 09:37:16
The problem you have with a global time limit (say 40 minutes plus 2 minutes extra per turn), is that it's not in the rules.
Unless Fumbbl intends to go 'house rule' then what we need is the best possible implementation of the current rule (4 minutes).
Many seem to think the balance is right now, as the coach has the option, which I am fine with. But I would love the auto-time out, with AFK button / Blank screen pauses.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-17 09:44:43
i conclude that an overall time limit of the game is a necessary thing for online play - so we cannot get rid of a time limit in general. all irgys arguments for a game budget of time to spend seem applicable to me and i remember a similarly confused reaction myself when i first learnt about the 4-min-rule (didn't know it from earlier tabletop games - which of course was my bad).
good post and i am all-in!
Posted by erased000019 on 2011-11-17 09:46:04
I think there is entirely too much consideration taking to being "nice" in game and that is why people don't use it. Bloodbowl is a competition, if you want to play in a competitive league anyway like Ranked or Box you should be there to try and win games. One of the rules of the competition is that you have four minutes to complete a turn. To me, agreeing whether silently or aloud to not use the time out button is no different from agreeing not to foul, and should be considered a prematch agreement. The only situation where I will not use it is if my opponent has a RL issue outside just thinking too long (disconnection, something that like.)
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-17 10:18:16
Well.......I think that has already been concluded, anyhow wrong blog for it!
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-11-17 10:28:54
the NAF world cup does just that. If the game looks like a delay, cumulative chess clocks are used:
4) Timing the matches.
You have 2 hours and 15 minutes to complete your match. When one hour's over, a general notice will be given that you should be close to starting the 2nd half. If, with one hour left, your game hasn't started the second half yet, you and your opponent will get a timer (chess clock). Each coach will have 30 minutes time for all his turns left in the game.
If you've spent all your time and your opponent hasn't, all you are allowed to do is put any prone players upright and unstun any players that are stunned. You are not allowed to take ANY other action than this.
If one or two coaches are late for the game the referees will note down your table number and who's late. If, with one hour left, the game hasn't started the second half yet, the coach who was late will get 20 minutes instead of 30. His opponent will get 40 minutes instead of 30. If both players were late both players will get 30 minutes.
http://www.blood-bowl.nl/file/694/World+Cup+English.pdf
Posted by uuni on 2011-11-17 10:40:02
@the_Sage: How does the NAF handle Side Step and other activity on the opposing players turn?
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-11-17 10:42:09
could somebody tell me what happens in chess if I run out of play time?
Do I lose the game then or do I have less time or what do you have in mind Igvy?
Posted by the_Sage on 2011-11-17 12:12:32
All I know is what I read in the booklet I linked, sorry Uni.
I'd say that (if it takes long enough to bother) you'd be allowed to puch the clock. Then again, there's no skill stacking allowed, so I doubt there will be much sidestepping. =)
Posted by Colin on 2011-11-17 12:53:30
Well said - as a well-known slow coach myself, I've had to adapt to the 4 minute turn. I will say it has contributed to a dumbing down of the game. These days, I see coaches taking all their blocks before doing anything much complicated, because it's easier to do this in the time available. Anyone who has played Elves or Stunties will know there are turns where a whole sequence of events are contingent on the result of each action, requiring careful thought, whereas some turns end very quickly (usually with a 1 - RR - 1). Such teams favour the chess clock.
There is a chess clock in FUMBBL - in League, you may set Turn Limit to 0 minutes and then select up to 90 minutes As Turn Extension. The only problem with this is the increments are massive - a Turn Extension of 60 minutes equals a 2 hour game, whereas the next one, 90 minutes, equals a 3 hour game. More increments mean we could tune the length of our games more finely.
Note, I'm not entirely sure how the Turn Extension interacts with the new client - perhaps someone could enlighten us?
Posted by zakatan on 2011-11-17 13:02:51
There are many possible time settings. In go the most popular are:
-Total time. Players are allowed to use a total amount of time throughout the game.
-Total time + byo-yomi (timer that resets after each turn. If the timer reaches 0 you consume a byo-yomi. The number of byo-yomis is agreed before the game starts). 30 mins + 2 min byoyomis would suit blood bowl for a rather fast game.
-Time pool for a number of moves. 12 minutes for 4 blood bowl turns, for example. This allows for a better "scheduling", compensating short and long turns within a boundary.
In either case, if you run out of time you lose the game. This part doesn't work for BB.
Posted by zakatan on 2011-11-17 13:06:37
i must say i'm with morehouse in this subject though. The time limit is part of the tactical challenge, and time pressure is part of this game. Not using it looses part of the charm of BB to me.
Colin, the turn extension doesn't interact with the new client as for now. I believe Kalimar and C plan to add customizable turn times for L (and maybe R for SpeedFreaks) at some point.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2011-11-17 13:28:40
Re Wreckage: If you run out of time in chess you lose the game. However with Irgy's method you always get 1 or 2 minutes extra per turn, so cannot actually lose this way.
Re NAF: If they use a chess clock, quite easy to hit the the clock if your opponent needs to use ss, so I guess they do that.
For me, most of my turns take around 2 minutes I guess, but usually once or twice a match I'd like 4 to 5 minutes. A blanket 4 minute turn, I find hampering and off putting. The fact an opponent decides whether I have 4 or 5 minutes for these thought prevoking turns isn't right in my opinion.
Posted by Fela on 2011-11-17 14:10:15
Very good analysis.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-11-17 15:57:37
I am sorry, but I disagree with almost the entirety of this very lengthy blog. This whole blog could have been summed up in 1 sentence.
'I personally don't like the 4 minute rule'
This in itself is absolutely fine, but I could counter every point you make if I could be bothered. As it is I accept that other coaches will choose to like or hate the rule. You can think for years over a turn as far as I'm concerned, but unlike CHESS (I just love this ridiculous comparison) a few '1's will bollocks up your lengthy plans :)
I summed up my take on the 4 minute rule in my blog, and I consider my approach to be a common sense one, which this issue has been sorely lacking.
Posted by uuni on 2011-11-17 23:45:45
@harvestmouse, the_sage:
Chess clock is imperfect solution, as it specifies that during normal play, time is running for either player.
CRP rules themselves do not specify what timelimit, if any, there should be on setting up, kicking off, or using complex skills such as Side Step, Bombardier, Stand Firm, Shadowing, Tentacles or even Dodge or Block during the opponents turn.
This may be an imperfection in the CRP rules, but still, that means that if one would like to have consistent timing rules with CRP, one would have to recreate them in such depth that it could be more useful to write completely new rules regarding the use of time.
Personally, I see one use case that time rules currently fill quite well: they prevent the roosters among us to not end their turn when losing, as many 6 years olds would do.
(How would you use the followin in TT:
a: I take Move Action. I move out of your BoN TZ. Do you use Tentacles?
b: I guess so. Roll the dice.
a: I rolled 10. My ST is 3, what is your ST?
b: My ST is 5. Tentacles fail.
a: I roll for Dodge and my AG is 3. Roll is 4. Do you have any Prehensile Tails or Diving Tackles around.
b: I have only one here, so it is no use.
a: Do you have any Shadowing you want to use?
b: Here, I have a Beastman with MA 6. Roll the dice.
a: I roll 8 and I have MA 7. I go scot free.
...
You know, this is not chess: A moves a piece, B moves a piece. There is a lot of information excanged in every small detail with the game.)