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2011-11-18 11:42:13
20 votes, rating 4.3
20 votes, rating 4.3
House Rules
being inspired by a recent forum survey by kalimar about how the available rules options change the gameplay i would like to bring forward another modification that might be worth trying out on fumbbl.
i am thinking of a special PO modification that we have been trying out in tabletop for a while. we treated the PO action (if it is chosen) as an additional fouling action for that turn, including the referee rules for send-off and bribing about that. we consider that to be more in line with the intentional piling on to injure the other player as a brutal action (like a foul is) since the opponent is on the ground already actually. we also apply fouling boni only (i.e. DP and SG instead of MB and claw). that definitely reduces the power of the clawPOMB combo. another aspect that we wanted to try out with this modification is that fouling should become more attractive again and started giving spps again for it. fouling successfully has become such a difficult thing that we considered it worth giving spps for. ;-) it also seemed justified because fouling specialists in order to really cause casualties need to be skilled up for that purpose.
the result as far as we can tell is that the brutality doesn't reduce, but becomes more balanced. there is more danger in it and more interesting games, also making bribes a very valuable inducement for brutal PO teams. we have also seen that teams would tend to build specialists (claw tackle mb for the attackers as part of the gameflow and tackle, PO, SG and DP for the casualty-causers (or even with wrestle but we havent tried that one yet ...))
the power reduction of mutation access we found tangible and good for the overall game balance. (the current PO using the MB and claw modifications as well without possible ejections of players pronounces the already valuable effect of claw too much i believe)
just some food for thoughts, feel free to shoot it down of course ... but if you are curious enough, try it out yourself. we of course haven't tested all possible combinations and it might be worth further testing and feedback.
in the end of course this is a lame old topic, but i haven't seen this being part of the lengthy discussions on fumbbl yet - and since it worked for a small group of people on tabletop, i thought to bring it forward despite the lameness of the topic anyway. ;-)
edit: hehe, looking at you guys' rating of this, it is a damn polarizing idea. so far the only scores given were 1 or 6 (3*1 and 5*6 at the moment of editing) ah, okay ... i think the 9th vote broke this line;-)
i am thinking of a special PO modification that we have been trying out in tabletop for a while. we treated the PO action (if it is chosen) as an additional fouling action for that turn, including the referee rules for send-off and bribing about that. we consider that to be more in line with the intentional piling on to injure the other player as a brutal action (like a foul is) since the opponent is on the ground already actually. we also apply fouling boni only (i.e. DP and SG instead of MB and claw). that definitely reduces the power of the clawPOMB combo. another aspect that we wanted to try out with this modification is that fouling should become more attractive again and started giving spps again for it. fouling successfully has become such a difficult thing that we considered it worth giving spps for. ;-) it also seemed justified because fouling specialists in order to really cause casualties need to be skilled up for that purpose.
the result as far as we can tell is that the brutality doesn't reduce, but becomes more balanced. there is more danger in it and more interesting games, also making bribes a very valuable inducement for brutal PO teams. we have also seen that teams would tend to build specialists (claw tackle mb for the attackers as part of the gameflow and tackle, PO, SG and DP for the casualty-causers (or even with wrestle but we havent tried that one yet ...))
the power reduction of mutation access we found tangible and good for the overall game balance. (the current PO using the MB and claw modifications as well without possible ejections of players pronounces the already valuable effect of claw too much i believe)
just some food for thoughts, feel free to shoot it down of course ... but if you are curious enough, try it out yourself. we of course haven't tested all possible combinations and it might be worth further testing and feedback.
in the end of course this is a lame old topic, but i haven't seen this being part of the lengthy discussions on fumbbl yet - and since it worked for a small group of people on tabletop, i thought to bring it forward despite the lameness of the topic anyway. ;-)
edit: hehe, looking at you guys' rating of this, it is a damn polarizing idea. so far the only scores given were 1 or 6 (3*1 and 5*6 at the moment of editing) ah, okay ... i think the 9th vote broke this line;-)
Comments
Posted by BooAhl on 2011-11-18 12:11:42
This is a great novel idea.
6 for uniqness!!!
6 for uniqness!!!
Posted by PyrionFlax on 2011-11-18 13:56:30
Yep, something needs to be done in both instances - fouling is too hard and gives no spp (which makes no sense at all) and po is too powerful at present. Would like to see both these in action.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-18 14:30:41
Bad ideas in my opinion.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 14:55:46
fair enough jimmy - any argumentation you have to add to the statement though? as a statement this is just an opinion, but doesn't serve as food for thoughts for me i am afraid. so, please show me what we have missed in our attempts so far!
or is it just that you want to keep PO as it is today because you like it? you have a lot more games of experience than i do, but your main active team also is a clawPOMB team ... and i honestly wouldn't expect a clawPOMB player to like the idea ;-P
or is it just that you want to keep PO as it is today because you like it? you have a lot more games of experience than i do, but your main active team also is a clawPOMB team ... and i honestly wouldn't expect a clawPOMB player to like the idea ;-P
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-18 15:21:44
Well 1st off I didn't really understand what you were trying to say.
You can make 2 fouls a turn? You make a Block to use PO and DP?
Or PO is just used on your normal foul for the turn?
Bringing back SPPS for fouling would cause A LOT of whining etc on here with people like Studman and me around.
You can make 2 fouls a turn? You make a Block to use PO and DP?
Or PO is just used on your normal foul for the turn?
Bringing back SPPS for fouling would cause A LOT of whining etc on here with people like Studman and me around.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-11-18 15:22:55
I (and others I'm sure) have suggested making Piling On a 'Foul' type action. But you took it a few steps further, and I have to say I like these suggestions. If it were implemented in the League client, I would be up for trying the changes. I especially like the idea of combining DP with PO, and for giving SPPs to fouling to make it a bit more enticing. And yes, we might actually see more use of SG. I would like to hear more information about the league you are running this in after you have some more games.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-18 15:23:48
Actually I think that PO as it is should just be removed completely.
Making it available for use on fouls would be quite powerful especially as you could use it to avoid being sent off.
I think this could be acceptable as I do love fouling and I loved the spearing blatant foul from 2nd ed.
Making it available for use on fouls would be quite powerful especially as you could use it to avoid being sent off.
I think this could be acceptable as I do love fouling and I loved the spearing blatant foul from 2nd ed.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 15:28:37
ah, sorry. i wasn't making myself clear enough jimmy: PO is not to re-roll a foul, but you can use piling on after bringing down your opponent on a block action and you are not satisfied (enough) with your armour or injury roll. but piling on will not be a full re-roll or armour or injury but work as an extra foul (not taking the 1 foul action per turn away!) that is applied right after the block by that player. this way also claw, MB are not applied, but actually SG and DP.
sorry for being unclear. and thx for the more concrete feedback. ;-)
sorry for being unclear. and thx for the more concrete feedback. ;-)
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 15:29:51
of course, if the armour was already broken by the block action it will stay broken for the foul afterwards!
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-18 15:37:14
Ok so you are kind of saying what other people said before that you can get sent off for using PO and then nerfing it a bit by combining it with dp rather than mb or claw but there is a flaw in your idea. Let's say I have an orc with mb po dp. I knock down your skaven lino, roll a 7 for armour, add +1 with MB, injure him. Roll a 5 for injury. not happy, PO roll a 7 then get to add +1 from DP. That seems very strong and combined with fouling SPPS would lead to mass piling on late in games and mass fouling.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 15:49:09
i have not been saying it takes out the brutality. but it removes very early thinning of lines by multiple re-rolled clawMBs ... because if you rolled lets say a 4+4 on inj plus the dp you will get sent off the pitch by the ref. even with SG!
i am not against bashing, we just liked the extra dimension this change brought to our game ... and the post was but to share it, not to cause a revolution ;-)
i am not against bashing, we just liked the extra dimension this change brought to our game ... and the post was but to share it, not to cause a revolution ;-)
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 15:50:47
and i find the lack of fouling (also late in the game) a bit lame actually, so i have nothing against boosting that instead. ;-P
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-18 15:58:44
besides: DP, SG and PO on the same player will be rare, since you need a lot of skills first and also access to GAS.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2011-11-18 16:44:52
SG would never be taken by these players because if you didnt break armour you wouldnt pile on.
Posted by BlizzBirne on 2011-11-19 12:27:14
hm, dunno. we tried both - and rolling a 1 1 on PO-injury roll with SG would lead to nothing but my player sent off. damn painful, so you will restrain from using PO at all then. but in fact, you use PO significantly less, especially in the beginning of the game, keeping the early outnumbering of players restricted to normal levels. worked fine for us with 11 players, even larger effect with 7s.