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2013-11-14 19:06:18
11 votes, rating 3.7
11 votes, rating 3.7
Box game advice
So my dorfs last box game was a loss against a dark felf team and a really good coach and I feel like I was really close (to a draw at least) and was hoping if anyone had the time to spec the replay and let me know how I could've played it better. Specifically on t14 when my blitzer had the ball near the sideline, where should I have positioned him? http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3505708
Comments
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-11-14 19:17:48
Post a screenshot of T14.
It takes 2 ticks to snap it, crop it, upload it (to your gallery - Home>Gallery), then include it using [img][/img] tags.
It takes 2 ticks to snap it, crop it, upload it (to your gallery - Home>Gallery), then include it using [img][/img] tags.
Posted by Elyoukey on 2013-11-14 19:30:53
just a quick check, but i think on turn 15 you should have focus on the space you needed to go forwrd, the blitz should have been on the runner not on the witch:
your #10 hit #2
#9 go in support for #1 to blitz out the runner then you can free 1 or 2 other dwarves and get some kind of caging (#4 and #3 with 3 and 2+ gfis)
ending up on something like this :
http://www.elyoukey.com/bbpusher/#2!5!4!S82!S64_PR1-1_p!S72_PB0-5_u!S73_PB3-1_u!S82_PB2-1_u!S86_PR3-0_p!Sa3_PB2-0_u!Sa5_PB0-7_u!Sa7_PR3-3_u!Sa8_PR3-2_u!Sb2_PB1-0_u!Sb5_PB0-9_u!Sb6_PR4-1_u!Sb9_PR0-5_u!Sc5_PR0-13_p!Se5_PR0-15_u!
your #10 hit #2
#9 go in support for #1 to blitz out the runner then you can free 1 or 2 other dwarves and get some kind of caging (#4 and #3 with 3 and 2+ gfis)
ending up on something like this :
http://www.elyoukey.com/bbpusher/#2!5!4!S82!S64_PR1-1_p!S72_PB0-5_u!S73_PB3-1_u!S82_PB2-1_u!S86_PR3-0_p!Sa3_PB2-0_u!Sa5_PB0-7_u!Sa7_PR3-3_u!Sa8_PR3-2_u!Sb2_PB1-0_u!Sb5_PB0-9_u!Sb6_PR4-1_u!Sb9_PR0-5_u!Sc5_PR0-13_p!Se5_PR0-15_u!
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-11-14 20:05:45
Elyoukey got a good plan there.
Watching your first half I got a couple of don'ts :
Don't move just a couple of dwarfs into contact with standing elfs one-on-one, he will just move in the support and get free 2d blocks on you. If you wanna pressure by contact you need to get several dwarfs into each elf and position your guard players in the optimal spots.
Don't spread out too much, he is faster and more maneuverable and can swarm the dwarfs with the ball if they get separated.
Following the above advice you should pretty much always make 2d blocks.
Don't stand a single player within 1 square of the sideline against frenzy opponents. If you need to shut of the flank then position 1 player(very good with guard) within 2 squares of the sideline and then another player directly(corner-corner) behind the first, 1 square back and 1 square closer to the sideline.
Hope some of it helps :)
Watching your first half I got a couple of don'ts :
Don't move just a couple of dwarfs into contact with standing elfs one-on-one, he will just move in the support and get free 2d blocks on you. If you wanna pressure by contact you need to get several dwarfs into each elf and position your guard players in the optimal spots.
Don't spread out too much, he is faster and more maneuverable and can swarm the dwarfs with the ball if they get separated.
Following the above advice you should pretty much always make 2d blocks.
Don't stand a single player within 1 square of the sideline against frenzy opponents. If you need to shut of the flank then position 1 player(very good with guard) within 2 squares of the sideline and then another player directly(corner-corner) behind the first, 1 square back and 1 square closer to the sideline.
Hope some of it helps :)
Posted by lizvis on 2013-11-14 20:19:45
the best advice i can give you is to not play box.
Posted by Topper on 2013-11-14 23:18:05
Lizvis that was really a good feedback I think. Hit the nail right on the head and Im certain that HammercatFunk will do much better now ;)
But Eluokey & Overhamsteren have some excellent points though :)
But Eluokey & Overhamsteren have some excellent points though :)
Posted by PurpleChest on 2013-11-15 00:55:54
there some fairly decent Dwarf coaches on fumbbl. i would find a few, buddy list them and watch how they play were I you. Dwarves only seem simple, the intricacies of their positioning and commitment level (where and when) are tough to master.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2013-11-15 01:57:45
having watched the replay sadly i dont agree. He wasnt that good a coach, and you wern't ever close to the draw.
To the specific question, you should probably have blitzed the runner, freeing more dorfs to pour forward and wall up. The blitzer to edge was madness.
But you were very lucky not to suffer a turnover td in first half, leaving gaps even for -2die v a blockless ball carrier just isnt on.
You never got near the ball on his drive. you got next to the ball, but always with him to move and spare people to blitz you off. this is NOT the same.
On your final drive i feel the handover was to early, limiting your options and giving him less to defend.
In general on your drive you overprioritised blocking. Thought one on offence is 'where do i want the ball and cage to go FORWARD to?' and everything aims towards that. Thought 2 is 'what blocks and blitzes will assist that?' and only thought 3 is usually 'what else can i hurt?'.
While the above advice from others isnt bad, lone dorfs tieing up 2 elves to block them isnt always a bad thing,and can create space. Dont lose too many out of the pack though. this is a tough judgement call that only experience will help with.
On defence you have to create both pressure and movement, or at the very least the threat of movement. Dorfs get outflanked REALLY easily. Thought one should be 'how do i get pressure to where he will be next turn'. Too often you advanced Dorfs into contact for battle, when they needed to drop back and create options for the turn afterwards.
Finally edge play. This is possibly your weakest skill demonstrated in that game. It is basically it's own little subgame, with tactics, risks and plays all its own. Frenzy is key and even the possibility of frenzy is gameable. So learn how to use it and some standard sideline safety strategy, as detailed by other above, is a good start.
All that said, Dorf play is rough shorthanded. GL with your beards, frustration comes as standard, but they are capable of greatness. Of course if you get any good with them, the games in R dry up. In B they will fall to clawpomb in scary fasion, sometime you need to think and plan for that too.
To the specific question, you should probably have blitzed the runner, freeing more dorfs to pour forward and wall up. The blitzer to edge was madness.
But you were very lucky not to suffer a turnover td in first half, leaving gaps even for -2die v a blockless ball carrier just isnt on.
You never got near the ball on his drive. you got next to the ball, but always with him to move and spare people to blitz you off. this is NOT the same.
On your final drive i feel the handover was to early, limiting your options and giving him less to defend.
In general on your drive you overprioritised blocking. Thought one on offence is 'where do i want the ball and cage to go FORWARD to?' and everything aims towards that. Thought 2 is 'what blocks and blitzes will assist that?' and only thought 3 is usually 'what else can i hurt?'.
While the above advice from others isnt bad, lone dorfs tieing up 2 elves to block them isnt always a bad thing,and can create space. Dont lose too many out of the pack though. this is a tough judgement call that only experience will help with.
On defence you have to create both pressure and movement, or at the very least the threat of movement. Dorfs get outflanked REALLY easily. Thought one should be 'how do i get pressure to where he will be next turn'. Too often you advanced Dorfs into contact for battle, when they needed to drop back and create options for the turn afterwards.
Finally edge play. This is possibly your weakest skill demonstrated in that game. It is basically it's own little subgame, with tactics, risks and plays all its own. Frenzy is key and even the possibility of frenzy is gameable. So learn how to use it and some standard sideline safety strategy, as detailed by other above, is a good start.
All that said, Dorf play is rough shorthanded. GL with your beards, frustration comes as standard, but they are capable of greatness. Of course if you get any good with them, the games in R dry up. In B they will fall to clawpomb in scary fasion, sometime you need to think and plan for that too.
Posted by gansus on 2013-11-15 09:39:47
As someone has already told you, dwarves, in general, are not that strong when isolated: their strength is in them AS A GROUP. Much of that strenght comes from early access to guard skill as they already start with block, tackle (and thick skull, just to round them up :P). But guard is really hard to cope with only when they next each other or, as a maximum, one square away. And always remember that guards in pairs are really strong, much more if you can set someone near not to allow opponent to just surround them. I mean:
__________
G X
G
X
Or something like that. But even if you just put both guards together, opponents needs either one guard himselfo to block with 2 dice, or lots of people to do it.
And, according to the first paragraph, if you commit in one turn by getting next to some elves, do not do it with just 1 guy, do it with a "cloud" of dwarves, to keep them together and strong.
Hope it helps!
__________
G X
G
X
Or something like that. But even if you just put both guards together, opponents needs either one guard himselfo to block with 2 dice, or lots of people to do it.
And, according to the first paragraph, if you commit in one turn by getting next to some elves, do not do it with just 1 guy, do it with a "cloud" of dwarves, to keep them together and strong.
Hope it helps!