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2011-05-24 21:42:19
36 votes, rating 5
36 votes, rating 5
FUMMBL and Tabletop
So, I'm here after being told repeatedly that tabletop was rubbish house-ruled nonsense and FUMMBL was 'proper' Blood Bowl. My initial reaction after >200 games? I prefer tabletop, both for leagues and tournaments. Each setting has it's own strengths outside of pure gameplay: tabletop has the social, aesthetic and tactile sides, FUMBBL has cost, speed and convenience. But leaving those to one side for one moment, I still prefer the format of tabletop ressurection tournaments. They seem less open to abuse and metagaming from coaches, for example min-maxing in Box and picking in Ranked. You rock up with a team in a level playing field for everyone and play 6 randomly assigned opponents, each game theoretically getting harder (or better matched to your ability) due to the Swiss system. Whereas on FUMBBL I can pick or be allocated 6 games that are walkovers or pointless due to coach ability / minmaxing brutality. Sure, the low TV of tournament games means you can argue that dice have more of an impact. But I find that preferable to games where your opponent ignores the ball and just tries to kill the team you are developing, only winning if he kills enough players early. I have virtually never had that in a tabletop tournament, coaches don't give up once you break their lines to indulge in petty fouls.
I like it here though, there are loads of quality coaches, the client is a joy, spectating is a riot and I am excited about my first venture into League. Just that tabletop is still currently my preference from the perspective of both gameplay and the social side. If you get the chance to come to a tournament in real life, please do so. 99% of the chaps are nice as pie and the Saturday evening socials are usually great fun.
All the best
Joe
I like it here though, there are loads of quality coaches, the client is a joy, spectating is a riot and I am excited about my first venture into League. Just that tabletop is still currently my preference from the perspective of both gameplay and the social side. If you get the chance to come to a tournament in real life, please do so. 99% of the chaps are nice as pie and the Saturday evening socials are usually great fun.
All the best
Joe
Comments
Posted by Garion on 2011-05-24 21:57:28
I think one problem with fumbbl is how upset people get with losing as well. Im guilty of it too. But I have just started playing PBeM and it is online but the atmosphere seems to be a lot more friendly and relaxed.
Just today I got black listed by a coach for nothing more than winning a game where I had good dice. Seems very sad to me. People need to stop taking it so seriously on here I think and I know I have been guilty of getting frustrated too. But I do wish there were less people going all out to kill peoples teams for no reason and fewer people that go mad and black list people for no other reason than being a bad loser.
Just today I got black listed by a coach for nothing more than winning a game where I had good dice. Seems very sad to me. People need to stop taking it so seriously on here I think and I know I have been guilty of getting frustrated too. But I do wish there were less people going all out to kill peoples teams for no reason and fewer people that go mad and black list people for no other reason than being a bad loser.
Posted by PigStar-69 on 2011-05-24 22:13:46
i tooo love table top and i also love it here. the only point i dissagree with u is the tactical side here is just as strong as table top. and it can be even stronger with the very high tv teams. But apart from that i feel your blog is awesome.
Table top is deffently where the real blood bowl is at but fumbbl takes blood bowl a lot further. for me tt edges fumbbl purely bbecause of the social scence, o h and some of the awesome minitures on display ;-D
Table top is deffently where the real blood bowl is at but fumbbl takes blood bowl a lot further. for me tt edges fumbbl purely bbecause of the social scence, o h and some of the awesome minitures on display ;-D
Posted by WhatBall on 2011-05-24 22:20:18
Welcome to FUMBBL Joe!
I do miss the social aspect of TT, but just don't have the time to get out and play games, which makes FUMBLL an ideal choice. Great to have you, and all the other recently joined/returned coaches, giving FUMBBL a go. Stick around and enjoy yourself.
I do miss the social aspect of TT, but just don't have the time to get out and play games, which makes FUMBLL an ideal choice. Great to have you, and all the other recently joined/returned coaches, giving FUMBBL a go. Stick around and enjoy yourself.
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-05-24 22:28:33
piggy, he said 'Tactile'.
What he means is, when you play Table Top, you actually get to pick up the pieces and move them around. Rather than them just being pixels on a screen.
I do not believe he has picked one type of coach over another for tactical knowledge.
What he means is, when you play Table Top, you actually get to pick up the pieces and move them around. Rather than them just being pixels on a screen.
I do not believe he has picked one type of coach over another for tactical knowledge.
Posted by Joemanji on 2011-05-24 22:28:40
Thanks for the comments.
@Garion: One benefit of TT is that people are less likely to thrown their toys out of the pram (I am guilty of this online and in RL). Having someone facing you makes it feel like more of a shared experience.
@piggy: Sorry, didn't mean to suggest that FUMBBL is less tactically strong. It's probably stronger. But the perpetual context opens up avenues for abuse for very clever coaches that aren't available or worth the effort on tabletop.
@WhatBall: Thanks for the welcome, the short time it takes to play a game here still amazes me!
@Garion: One benefit of TT is that people are less likely to thrown their toys out of the pram (I am guilty of this online and in RL). Having someone facing you makes it feel like more of a shared experience.
@piggy: Sorry, didn't mean to suggest that FUMBBL is less tactically strong. It's probably stronger. But the perpetual context opens up avenues for abuse for very clever coaches that aren't available or worth the effort on tabletop.
@WhatBall: Thanks for the welcome, the short time it takes to play a game here still amazes me!
Posted by Joemanji on 2011-05-24 22:29:33
@DukeTyrion: yep, that's what I meant! I did wonder where Piggy got that impression ...
Posted by JellyBelly on 2011-05-24 22:44:46
Hi and welcome to Fumbbl! I agree that there are some people on here who take it all a bit _too_ seriously, but there's still an awful lot of fun to be had. :D
Posted by pythrr on 2011-05-24 22:51:13
yeah, in TT you can have a laff and a beer, but there are far better coaches on fumbbl than you will ever face in most local tt groups.
Posted by Leipziger_Waterbowl on 2011-05-24 23:38:48
Nice blog, Joe. I also enjoy it here. The new client definitely is a huge step up from the old one. So much more intuitive to get started with and it avoids the fannying around with Javabowl files.
I haven't played enough games yet to comment on the min/maxing etc, but I think regardless of how many games I play here TT will always have the edge because of the social side. There is just something about playing against your opponent in the flesh that I don't think the computer can replicate (despite Geoff's constant demands for naked webcams :o ;) )
I haven't played enough games yet to comment on the min/maxing etc, but I think regardless of how many games I play here TT will always have the edge because of the social side. There is just something about playing against your opponent in the flesh that I don't think the computer can replicate (despite Geoff's constant demands for naked webcams :o ;) )
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-05-24 23:45:46
Great blog, Joemanji. I think one of the reasons people take FUMBBL so seriously (and this applies to me - guilty) is the stats. It's great that the site keeps track of so many wonderful numbers, but sometimes they can become an albatross; specifically the CR and BWR (though there are plenty of other numbers). Many of us are competitive and we want to watch those numbers go up, not down. But I still enjoy FUMBBL and right now it is my only outlet for Blood Bowl so I'm learning to take the bad with the good. Glad you are enjoying the site and hope to face you again soon. I want revenge ;)
Posted by PeteW on 2011-05-24 23:52:02
Agreed.
Tabletop is the real deal. Playing someone face to face cannot even be touched for an "experience".
For example, having "got the ref", my tabletop opponent fouls me first turn with a saurus. I cry "ref", he gets spotted, and the bribe fails. Bye bye saurus. On Fumbbl, I might have been forced to type "oh man - that's unlucky", but on tabletop I was able to hoot and jeer and laugh in my opponent's face.
Needless to say, he went on to beat me 1-0.....
Tabletop is the real deal. Playing someone face to face cannot even be touched for an "experience".
For example, having "got the ref", my tabletop opponent fouls me first turn with a saurus. I cry "ref", he gets spotted, and the bribe fails. Bye bye saurus. On Fumbbl, I might have been forced to type "oh man - that's unlucky", but on tabletop I was able to hoot and jeer and laugh in my opponent's face.
Needless to say, he went on to beat me 1-0.....
Posted by Macavity on 2011-05-25 00:54:11
Wow, I can't imagine what I would do if I had to see any of you folks while I played.....
That said, I am looking forward to my new league specifically because there won't be any randomness or choice in the opponent selection (unless you count me making the schedule).
That said, I am looking forward to my new league specifically because there won't be any randomness or choice in the opponent selection (unless you count me making the schedule).
Posted by PigStar-69 on 2011-05-25 07:07:54
Wish i could speak english sometimes ;-D piggy is not known for his brains....
still a cool blog though !
still a cool blog though !
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-05-25 09:34:48
Both have aspects the other can't touch. I wonder what would happen if we could take TT's awesome social side and actually playing the game in person and combine it with the quality of actual BB (in terms of variety, environment and TV) FUMBBL provides. Probably would rip space time? I don't think the abuse and metagaming is a massive issue at all, mind, unless you're the one doing it! ;)
As Pig and I have always said (bollocks), if you're not playing both, you're missing out!
As Pig and I have always said (bollocks), if you're not playing both, you're missing out!
Posted by pythrr on 2011-05-25 09:37:24
PeteW: On Fumbbl, I might have been forced to type "oh man - that's unlucky"
Why?
Why?
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-05-25 09:43:04
I don't think he was being serious. ;)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-05-25 11:30:41
But, but... surely Pete is ALWAYS serious...
(he's a math teacher, after all)
(he's a math teacher, after all)
Posted by Purplegoo on 2011-05-25 11:56:59
Math_s_, n00b. ;)
Posted by Sizzler on 2011-05-25 12:05:09
Good blog, Joe. FUMBBL will never be able to replicate the tabletop experience. Sitting with friends, eating pizza and nerding it up is one of the best things in life.
Not to say that FUMBBL isn't massively enjoyable; we all have jobs and bills to pay so can't always get out to play live BB and this is a great substitute, but that's all it'll ever be - a substitute.
Give me a comfy chair in Caffé Nero anyday.
Not to say that FUMBBL isn't massively enjoyable; we all have jobs and bills to pay so can't always get out to play live BB and this is a great substitute, but that's all it'll ever be - a substitute.
Give me a comfy chair in Caffé Nero anyday.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-05-25 13:06:44
maff teecha
Posted by koadah on 2011-05-25 13:36:01
You can run no progression Swiss tournaments here on Fumbbl too. If you can get anyone to sign up for them that is. ;)
Swiss doesn't suit online so well as people drift away after a loss or two.
There are some guys who have won their own local league for last 10 years straight. Even though it has always been vs the same 6 or 7 guys that they have been playing since they were 12 they expect to come online and kick everyone's ass.
When that doesn't work out they scream the place down about cheating (hacks/admin client), unsportsmanlike conduct (stalling/fouling/etc), broken RNG etc, etc. :D
And \o/ for Kalimar & Christer for offering us a chance of some house ruled nonsense ;)
Swiss doesn't suit online so well as people drift away after a loss or two.
There are some guys who have won their own local league for last 10 years straight. Even though it has always been vs the same 6 or 7 guys that they have been playing since they were 12 they expect to come online and kick everyone's ass.
When that doesn't work out they scream the place down about cheating (hacks/admin client), unsportsmanlike conduct (stalling/fouling/etc), broken RNG etc, etc. :D
And \o/ for Kalimar & Christer for offering us a chance of some house ruled nonsense ;)
Posted by Macavity on 2011-05-25 19:17:52
People touch their miniatures with greasy Pizza hands? Sacrilege!
Also, aren't those disgusting pepperoni sticks the nerd food of choice?
Also, aren't those disgusting pepperoni sticks the nerd food of choice?
Posted by Colin on 2011-05-26 01:00:01
I came back to BloodBowl way back in the days FUMBBL was born - I went away for a while, until someone hunted me down for a local tabletop league. I'm glad he did.
I'd have to say tabletop edges it overall, but FUMBBL allows us to play when we can't meet up so often, as is currently the case with my league, which is why I'm running an online extension of it here.
Agreed on tournaments - attended one last year, very well run by an experienced gamer.
The main thing about tournaments is the importance and emphasis on every game - every match is an occasion - I've experienced games on FUMBBL where opposing coaches didn't take it that seriously, not seeing it through to the end, and felt insulted that they should give less than their all.
I'd have to say tabletop edges it overall, but FUMBBL allows us to play when we can't meet up so often, as is currently the case with my league, which is why I'm running an online extension of it here.
Agreed on tournaments - attended one last year, very well run by an experienced gamer.
The main thing about tournaments is the importance and emphasis on every game - every match is an occasion - I've experienced games on FUMBBL where opposing coaches didn't take it that seriously, not seeing it through to the end, and felt insulted that they should give less than their all.