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2011-10-04 12:31:42
14 votes, rating 5.2
14 votes, rating 5.2
Amanda Knox, Troy Davis and the American perception of justice
So, I have seen that you can write blogs on FUMBBL that deal with topics outside of Blood Bowl, so I decided to take a stab here (no pun).
Yesterday American student Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend were acquitted of charges of murder against an English student, after being initially being convicted for murder and serving 26 and 25 years respectively. I guess that most of you have heard the details: The claim of the prosecution was that the victim was killed in some kind of bizarre sex orgy. The claim was supported by hard evidence that we learned now was not hard at all as Italian investigators did a very sloppy job, and her making several contradictions during her interrogations as well as (let’s face it) her being sexually agressive and demonstrated character traits that were highly at odds with a public American sweetheart personality (apparently she had some macabre story after a girl being raped posted on her MySpace account). Look, I do not know if she is innocent or not as I did not really pay much attention to this until Sunday. I guess if the main evidence is rubbish you have to let her go regardless of if you think she is guilty or not as you cannot convict someone based on a MySpace account.
Now here comes the part where I would like to steer a little discussion. 1. Apparently her first strategy was to “blame it on the black guy” as this in the US still seems like a strategy with the highest potential pay-offs (more on this later) and she first put the blame on a bar owner who was quickly found to be innocent. Based on this it is tough to feel sympathy with her, as a man’s life might have been destroyed because of her lies. So her serving 26 years while being innocent would not have been different from what she wished on another man. What goes around comes around.
The other point I would like to put up for discussion is the reaction in the US and the Troy Davis case. Yesterday I googled for American views on the Amanda Knox case and was not surprised to find out that the girl was for the most part was found to be innocent (understandable) and the Italian court system and justice system as a whole to be demonized while America was praised as the land of the free. Apparently Donald Trump (yeah, I know) had called for a boycott of Italian products and other posters used religiously tinged metaphors of guilt were exerted. So as I understand it to a good degree, it was the religious right that was up in arms to save their “American girl” and the consensus was that this was an act of anti-Americanism as an “evil nation” jumped on the chance to get on in on the US.
Well, I would like to state that the vast majority of Americans I have met where not only truly polite and friendly but also level-headed people (it makes sense as the American right assumes every other country save for Israel to be irrelevant and therefore have little incentives to travel), so I always wondered why it is that those people seems to have the loudest voice of them all when it comes to shape the profile of the US abroad.
Anyway, more important is to evaluate this behavior in light of the recent Troy Davis execution. Again, I am not a lawyer and do not claim to have extensive knowledge about either case, but as I understand it the situation in terms of hard evidence is not much different, if anything there was actually less circumstantial and hard evidence on Davis than on Knox. It is very well possible both are innocent or at least should be acquitted on lack of evidence. There was also support in American society for Davis but I guess it can be generalized that those were not the same group of people than during the Knox case (left-wing, maybe best symbolized by the figure heads Donald Trump-Jimmy Carter). In the end the man died and I assume the most important reasons are the governor trying to raise his profile as “being tough on crime”, the questions it would raise about the validity of the death penalty and I guess a lot of influential people in politics and the justice system would have been embarrassed if they have had their hands in almost executing an innocent.
Still as it is in the end the (flawed) Italian court system got it right in the end by revising a conviction that was based on questionable, non-conclusive evidence, while the American system did not. Some might wonder what would have happened if the two protagonists had switched places. Still after all this drama my confidence in the Italian court is greater than in the American.
The sad part is also that Knox will in the end probably make a fortune out of this tragedy by writing a book and selling the movie rights.
….
Well my first blog entry, probably way too long and not very cohesive but I rather interested in more views of this two incidents.
Yesterday American student Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend were acquitted of charges of murder against an English student, after being initially being convicted for murder and serving 26 and 25 years respectively. I guess that most of you have heard the details: The claim of the prosecution was that the victim was killed in some kind of bizarre sex orgy. The claim was supported by hard evidence that we learned now was not hard at all as Italian investigators did a very sloppy job, and her making several contradictions during her interrogations as well as (let’s face it) her being sexually agressive and demonstrated character traits that were highly at odds with a public American sweetheart personality (apparently she had some macabre story after a girl being raped posted on her MySpace account). Look, I do not know if she is innocent or not as I did not really pay much attention to this until Sunday. I guess if the main evidence is rubbish you have to let her go regardless of if you think she is guilty or not as you cannot convict someone based on a MySpace account.
Now here comes the part where I would like to steer a little discussion. 1. Apparently her first strategy was to “blame it on the black guy” as this in the US still seems like a strategy with the highest potential pay-offs (more on this later) and she first put the blame on a bar owner who was quickly found to be innocent. Based on this it is tough to feel sympathy with her, as a man’s life might have been destroyed because of her lies. So her serving 26 years while being innocent would not have been different from what she wished on another man. What goes around comes around.
The other point I would like to put up for discussion is the reaction in the US and the Troy Davis case. Yesterday I googled for American views on the Amanda Knox case and was not surprised to find out that the girl was for the most part was found to be innocent (understandable) and the Italian court system and justice system as a whole to be demonized while America was praised as the land of the free. Apparently Donald Trump (yeah, I know) had called for a boycott of Italian products and other posters used religiously tinged metaphors of guilt were exerted. So as I understand it to a good degree, it was the religious right that was up in arms to save their “American girl” and the consensus was that this was an act of anti-Americanism as an “evil nation” jumped on the chance to get on in on the US.
Well, I would like to state that the vast majority of Americans I have met where not only truly polite and friendly but also level-headed people (it makes sense as the American right assumes every other country save for Israel to be irrelevant and therefore have little incentives to travel), so I always wondered why it is that those people seems to have the loudest voice of them all when it comes to shape the profile of the US abroad.
Anyway, more important is to evaluate this behavior in light of the recent Troy Davis execution. Again, I am not a lawyer and do not claim to have extensive knowledge about either case, but as I understand it the situation in terms of hard evidence is not much different, if anything there was actually less circumstantial and hard evidence on Davis than on Knox. It is very well possible both are innocent or at least should be acquitted on lack of evidence. There was also support in American society for Davis but I guess it can be generalized that those were not the same group of people than during the Knox case (left-wing, maybe best symbolized by the figure heads Donald Trump-Jimmy Carter). In the end the man died and I assume the most important reasons are the governor trying to raise his profile as “being tough on crime”, the questions it would raise about the validity of the death penalty and I guess a lot of influential people in politics and the justice system would have been embarrassed if they have had their hands in almost executing an innocent.
Still as it is in the end the (flawed) Italian court system got it right in the end by revising a conviction that was based on questionable, non-conclusive evidence, while the American system did not. Some might wonder what would have happened if the two protagonists had switched places. Still after all this drama my confidence in the Italian court is greater than in the American.
The sad part is also that Knox will in the end probably make a fortune out of this tragedy by writing a book and selling the movie rights.
….
Well my first blog entry, probably way too long and not very cohesive but I rather interested in more views of this two incidents.
Comments
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-04 12:38:30
well, if she is innocent, then she deserves to make a fortune as she has had four years STOLEN from her by the Italian state. Because I'm pretty sure she won't get compensation for wrongful imprisonment.
Posted by Eieksar on 2011-10-04 12:58:59
1 year 'stolen'. She was sentenced to 3 years for trying to do the same to Patrick Lumumba as stated above :P
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 13:03:54
No, she has not had 4 years stolen. There was no wrongful imprisonment. She was also convicted 3 years for lying and trying to put the blame on an innocent man (a serious crime in itself)so the time behind bars hopefully served her well. As I said what goes around comes around. He accusted bar owner has already stated that he will further sue for compensation.
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 13:04:31
Beat me to it Ar-Ulric. ;-)
Posted by The_Gracchi on 2011-10-04 13:32:21
Two things that never belong in a decision of innocence or guilt are media hype and nationalism.
Posted by drbunny on 2011-10-04 14:18:31
The barman sued already. He got $40k
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-04 15:00:29
so, as ar-ulric notes, ONE YEAR STOLEN
what's that worth? what would you demand as payment for one year of your life in a virtual hell?
what's that worth? what would you demand as payment for one year of your life in a virtual hell?
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2011-10-04 15:17:28
you, yourself, called her a slut, so you've already judged her in your own personal court of law... how is that far to someone who deserves a fair and unbiased trial?...
the entire problem to this, casey anthony, oj simpson, or any other publicly televised court trial, is that the public has already decided the judgement long before a judge or jury ever even deliberates....and regardless of what the final decision, society is going to determine that person's life from that point forward....
just look at casey anthony and the turmoil her life is going to be subjected to from this point forward...a court of law deemed her innocent, but society has already sentenced her to hell and a lifetime of death threats and prejudice...how is that fair?...
the entire problem to this, casey anthony, oj simpson, or any other publicly televised court trial, is that the public has already decided the judgement long before a judge or jury ever even deliberates....and regardless of what the final decision, society is going to determine that person's life from that point forward....
just look at casey anthony and the turmoil her life is going to be subjected to from this point forward...a court of law deemed her innocent, but society has already sentenced her to hell and a lifetime of death threats and prejudice...how is that fair?...
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 15:44:23
shadow,I am surprised that you get upset about someone speaking a little candy. Her being a slut does not make her guilty.
When you hear of a girl that had sexual relations with more than 10 different guys in 2 month, had sex with a stranger in his mid-50s on a train ride and lost her job because she was hitting on constumers and you were discussing such a woman with your buddies, probably some laughs would be exchanged and the word slut might fall- Still you might be right that in a serious comment this word should be replaced by the term "sexually agressive" (which I will do).
I also did not state that she was guilty. I honestly do not know. I approve her being set free because the evidence was too thin that does not change the fact that some tough to dismiss doubts remain. Let' not pretend like the initial conviction was made out of thin air (we still have the bloody footprint of her boyfriend in the bathroom, her contradictions, the clearly faked break-in, only 1 fingerprint of her in her own flat, the fact that the cellphones of her and her boyfriend were switched off from 8:40 on and a lot of other stuff). I don't believe that sadistic sex orgy thing either, but I could imagine that she knows more than she lets on. After all it is pretty much established that she has no alibi and there was some jealousy towards the victim.
I rather wanted to contrast this with the Troy Davis case, where there was far less circumstantial evidence. Because now we already have American politicans and judges pointing the finger at Italy and the rest of the world. At least they got it (hopefully) right in the end, while in America an man who might very well be innocent was executed, because a governor and a few judges did not want their political careers damaged.
When you hear of a girl that had sexual relations with more than 10 different guys in 2 month, had sex with a stranger in his mid-50s on a train ride and lost her job because she was hitting on constumers and you were discussing such a woman with your buddies, probably some laughs would be exchanged and the word slut might fall- Still you might be right that in a serious comment this word should be replaced by the term "sexually agressive" (which I will do).
I also did not state that she was guilty. I honestly do not know. I approve her being set free because the evidence was too thin that does not change the fact that some tough to dismiss doubts remain. Let' not pretend like the initial conviction was made out of thin air (we still have the bloody footprint of her boyfriend in the bathroom, her contradictions, the clearly faked break-in, only 1 fingerprint of her in her own flat, the fact that the cellphones of her and her boyfriend were switched off from 8:40 on and a lot of other stuff). I don't believe that sadistic sex orgy thing either, but I could imagine that she knows more than she lets on. After all it is pretty much established that she has no alibi and there was some jealousy towards the victim.
I rather wanted to contrast this with the Troy Davis case, where there was far less circumstantial evidence. Because now we already have American politicans and judges pointing the finger at Italy and the rest of the world. At least they got it (hopefully) right in the end, while in America an man who might very well be innocent was executed, because a governor and a few judges did not want their political careers damaged.
Posted by PainState on 2011-10-04 15:49:21
what da heck? Comparing Knox to Davis? No evidence that Davis killed the off duty cop trying to stop Davis and his thugs from beating down that homeless guy? that the evidence is more shakey than the Knox case?
There was 9 witnesses. The evidence presented was very clear of his guilt. The Davis case gets hung up on the age old debate in the United States of capital punishment. The defense of Davis was never about proving Davis innocent, not even his defense could prove that, they tried to turn the case upside down by putting capital punishment on trial.
Now we can go back and forth on captial punishment..Pro or Con. BUT Davis still shot the man and KILLED HIM and was convicted in a court of law by his peers in under 2 hours. His verdict was upheld by 3 appeals courts and the state supreme court.
This attempt to make the United States judicial system seem unfair and biased is weak and way off base. I will let the Italians defend their own court system, I dont care.
There was 9 witnesses. The evidence presented was very clear of his guilt. The Davis case gets hung up on the age old debate in the United States of capital punishment. The defense of Davis was never about proving Davis innocent, not even his defense could prove that, they tried to turn the case upside down by putting capital punishment on trial.
Now we can go back and forth on captial punishment..Pro or Con. BUT Davis still shot the man and KILLED HIM and was convicted in a court of law by his peers in under 2 hours. His verdict was upheld by 3 appeals courts and the state supreme court.
This attempt to make the United States judicial system seem unfair and biased is weak and way off base. I will let the Italians defend their own court system, I dont care.
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 15:59:34
@pythrr: she will get her compensation (like every person that has been in prison while being innocent), don't worry and she will make good money of this, but let's not forget that she came close to destroying the life of another onnocent man. If you ask me, she therefore has morally (mind you probably not judically ) little ground to complian about those 4 years in prison as she is already doing.
You also has something to say about Troy Davis? Or the bar owner that lived 14 days of "virtual hell" (and would have done so much much longer, if Knox would have gotten her wish)? Or are just interested at being at odds with another blog entry?
You also has something to say about Troy Davis? Or the bar owner that lived 14 days of "virtual hell" (and would have done so much much longer, if Knox would have gotten her wish)? Or are just interested at being at odds with another blog entry?
Posted by WhatBall on 2011-10-04 16:14:29
Only going to comment on this one bit:
"Still after all this drama my confidence in the Italian court is greater than in the American. "
Are you mad! While the American court system may have its flaws, and occasionally be subverted by biased judges, etc, it is nowhere near as corrupt and backwards as the Italian system. Italy is one country you don't want to get charged with something. Look at the Senna trial. They tried to put the team on trial for murder for a crash in a motor race.??
I'd rather take my chances in American court any day.
"Still after all this drama my confidence in the Italian court is greater than in the American. "
Are you mad! While the American court system may have its flaws, and occasionally be subverted by biased judges, etc, it is nowhere near as corrupt and backwards as the Italian system. Italy is one country you don't want to get charged with something. Look at the Senna trial. They tried to put the team on trial for murder for a crash in a motor race.??
I'd rather take my chances in American court any day.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2011-10-04 16:15:16
'This attempt to make the United States judicial system seem unfair and biased is weak and way off base.'
I just dont see wherre the OP or anyone else is doing that. And you're right, if you want to attack the American legal system there are countless better ways.
Every country has its issues, Italy has finally probably done the right thing. let a clearly guilty girl go as they cannot prove her guilt or what she did. Wouldn't it have been far better if she told the truth, there is stilla family in grief at the death she clearly knows a great deal about.
I thought the family of the dead english girl handled it well. I thought their dignity in the face of the vile drivel coming from the immoral right in the states was marvelous.
As to Troy Davis, that case i didnt follow. But the death penalty is appallling and removes the US's right to criticise any other leagal system in actually developed countries.
You just cant sit in the middle ages and criticise modern judiciaries, it's laughable.
(there ya go, i criticies the US legal system in that one regard)
I just dont see wherre the OP or anyone else is doing that. And you're right, if you want to attack the American legal system there are countless better ways.
Every country has its issues, Italy has finally probably done the right thing. let a clearly guilty girl go as they cannot prove her guilt or what she did. Wouldn't it have been far better if she told the truth, there is stilla family in grief at the death she clearly knows a great deal about.
I thought the family of the dead english girl handled it well. I thought their dignity in the face of the vile drivel coming from the immoral right in the states was marvelous.
As to Troy Davis, that case i didnt follow. But the death penalty is appallling and removes the US's right to criticise any other leagal system in actually developed countries.
You just cant sit in the middle ages and criticise modern judiciaries, it's laughable.
(there ya go, i criticies the US legal system in that one regard)
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 16:17:54
@PainState: There was no murder weapon found in the Davis case, 7 of the 9 witnesses stated that they were pressured into their testimonies. Supposendly the guy who might have actually done it made a confession to 2 witnesses plus some other stuff. These cases are absolutely comparable imo.
Further there were appeals made to higher courts, but he was not given a second trial, which makes a big difference. Davis was convicted to death after an 2-hour (!!!) trial mostly on the basis of witnes tesimonies. Like in the Knox case I do not want to be the one making the call, but these cases are very comparable. Even if you think he was guilty, it should be noted that nobody should be handed the capital punishment after a trial of 2 hours.
Further there were appeals made to higher courts, but he was not given a second trial, which makes a big difference. Davis was convicted to death after an 2-hour (!!!) trial mostly on the basis of witnes tesimonies. Like in the Knox case I do not want to be the one making the call, but these cases are very comparable. Even if you think he was guilty, it should be noted that nobody should be handed the capital punishment after a trial of 2 hours.
Posted by Qaz on 2011-10-04 16:18:23
I am not that familiar with the Troy Davis case but didn't several of the 9 witnesses later withdraw or change there statements? (mind you I ask as I am not sure)
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 16:21:46
I should have stated nobody should be handed a capital punishment PERIOD. How many more revised convictions do we need?
Posted by JackRose on 2011-10-04 16:31:43
It's funny how your perception becomes your reality. I'm a card carrying member of the American right, and I had never heard of Amanda Knox before she was released. Neither I nor anyone I know went to bat for her. In fact, it looks like her defense was handled by the Italy-USA foundation, which doesn't appear to me to have ideological roots in either end of the political spectrum. And yet, somehow we were "up in arms" because Donald Trump (THERE'S a religious figure for you!) used "religiously tinged metaphors" in calling for Knox's release? And that we thought she was convicted because Italy hates us?
Bizarre.
Donald Trump says whatever gets Donald Trump attention, because 1.) he likes attention and 2.) it sells books and games shows. The same goes for the media in general - it is easy to sell a person who already hates bunnies a story bashing bunnies, because that's what they want to read.
Bizarre.
Donald Trump says whatever gets Donald Trump attention, because 1.) he likes attention and 2.) it sells books and games shows. The same goes for the media in general - it is easy to sell a person who already hates bunnies a story bashing bunnies, because that's what they want to read.
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 16:41:50
Donald Trump did not use religous metaphors, posters on that blog did this. I guess I was not clear on this as I am not a native speaker. I will edit the part to highlight this.
Posted by PainState on 2011-10-04 17:16:11
Did you not read the OP PC?
We even had a nice line about the travel habits of United States citizen and their destination of choice depends on their politcal views. I never realized Israel was such a hotspot for tourism for the American right.
Why even bring up Troy Davis if not to attempt a compare and contrast of the two legal systems and then make a politcal statement out of it?
Iam stil confused on the travel habits of my fellow Americans.
I would also like to point out that the American legal system is not in the middle ages because it supports capital punihsment. In fact I would say the American system is the most modern because it has fully embraced progressive "ideas" on how to punish crime. To portray the United States as a country that still supports the hang mans noose as justice is obviously attempting to back a politcal agenda. None of us were alive when the Hang Mans noose was true justice in American and Euorpe. Scene any good 15 man mass hangings or the 100 person beheadings latley?
I consider my self conservative, thus a right wing fire breathing hell spawn demon to most europeans, and I have not been to Israel. What Am I missing out on?
We even had a nice line about the travel habits of United States citizen and their destination of choice depends on their politcal views. I never realized Israel was such a hotspot for tourism for the American right.
Why even bring up Troy Davis if not to attempt a compare and contrast of the two legal systems and then make a politcal statement out of it?
Iam stil confused on the travel habits of my fellow Americans.
I would also like to point out that the American legal system is not in the middle ages because it supports capital punihsment. In fact I would say the American system is the most modern because it has fully embraced progressive "ideas" on how to punish crime. To portray the United States as a country that still supports the hang mans noose as justice is obviously attempting to back a politcal agenda. None of us were alive when the Hang Mans noose was true justice in American and Euorpe. Scene any good 15 man mass hangings or the 100 person beheadings latley?
I consider my self conservative, thus a right wing fire breathing hell spawn demon to most europeans, and I have not been to Israel. What Am I missing out on?
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-04 17:46:00
"I should have stated nobody should be handed a capital punishment PERIOD. How many more revised convictions do we need?"
I disagree. There are cases where it is justified. We all know what they are.
I disagree. There are cases where it is justified. We all know what they are.
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 17:48:21
I stated that those people seem to care about no other people other than the US and Israel not that they travel there. I will concede though that I maybe was not entirely fair with that generalization. I just wanted to state that the Americans I have meet where for the most part were very friendly people. I am concerned about some prominent political groups in the US and the political course they would like their country to take.
I wanted to stir a discussion and that is what I got, so I welcome you, PainState and others to disagree with me. There is also a difference between being right winged (or a moderate right) and being extremly on the right and the people I put on blast can be counted to the latter group. I would not put you two (PainState and JackRose) in that group based on what you have stated here as you still seem willing to have a fair discussion on the topic.
Yes, I also tried to make a statement about the American system, which I find to be far from the best/most modern system as you do. Quiet frankly, if they did concnern themselves about making progress capital punishment and than "3 strikes you're gone" approach would have been out the window a long time ago. Deterrence only works to a certain extent otherwise the US wouldn't still ahve the highest crime and murder rates in the Western world.
That being said, I would not like to go OT on my own blog. I would really like us to concentrate on the two cases first and go from there. PainState, what is your take on the Knox case? I would honestly be interested.
I wanted to stir a discussion and that is what I got, so I welcome you, PainState and others to disagree with me. There is also a difference between being right winged (or a moderate right) and being extremly on the right and the people I put on blast can be counted to the latter group. I would not put you two (PainState and JackRose) in that group based on what you have stated here as you still seem willing to have a fair discussion on the topic.
Yes, I also tried to make a statement about the American system, which I find to be far from the best/most modern system as you do. Quiet frankly, if they did concnern themselves about making progress capital punishment and than "3 strikes you're gone" approach would have been out the window a long time ago. Deterrence only works to a certain extent otherwise the US wouldn't still ahve the highest crime and murder rates in the Western world.
That being said, I would not like to go OT on my own blog. I would really like us to concentrate on the two cases first and go from there. PainState, what is your take on the Knox case? I would honestly be interested.
Posted by Qaz on 2011-10-04 18:37:03
You dont hang people in the US? I mean you as a pirate PainState should know. They might even reinstate the gibbet for you (pirate and all). Joke aside the last hanging in the US was
Hanging January 25, 1996 Delaware William Bailey
New Hampshire and Washington still uses hanging amongst other types of death penelty
Hanging January 25, 1996 Delaware William Bailey
New Hampshire and Washington still uses hanging amongst other types of death penelty
Posted by PainState on 2011-10-04 18:51:50
Here is the problem with the Knox case.
1)It turned into a political/public viewing case from the start.
2)2 Life Time movies and way to many 1 hour news shows has shed no light on what happened. But did a great job of swaying the viewers to one conclusion or the other.
3) Anti-Americanism and Italy sucks got invoked. Which once again put the actual case into the background as we spent a lot of time yelling about who sucks more.
So by the time we got to the actual case. We knew a lady was dead and trying to figure out who killed her.
In the end I think the legal system eventually got so "sick" of this and political/social pressure got to such a level that they just washed their hands of this entire thing and let her walk.
I have no clue if she was innocent or guilty but I do know at some point the powers that be just said to hell with it all. She might of got away with murder for all I know.
Compared to Davis who made the news back in 1989 and 2001 when he commited his crime and took that long to go to trial. He sat around for years and noone knew who the hell he was. It was not untill a firm date for his exectution was brought up that his case got some "pub". So his case was not marred by endless news coverage and mass media trying to sway the minds of the "public".
Even in the closing days before Davis was put to death the discussion was only heard in the political realms as the arguments pro/con of death penalty once again filled the air waves. Thus politicians starting to chim in, rememeber a big election cycle is coming up. Some would say the biggest one ever in the history of the United States. Even larger than the 1864 election year.
So the Davis case IMO was closed and shut by the last appeals court judge. Politically there was no gain to stay or proceed with the sentence. Politics had allmost nothing to do with the result. Unlike the Knox case were politics was allways lurking in the background. Politics on the Davis case was reduced to politicians making speeches to get it on the record for the election year.
So Davis was quilty in the eyes of the court. He had numerous appeals. It was not swift or rash, he was on death row since 2001, he commited his crime in 1989. SO if the evidence was so overwhelming of innocence was it all his lawyers fault? He had the top ACLU anti-death penalty lawyers on the case.
And that is the problem IMO...they were anti-death peanlty hacks in the end and not Davis is innocent, passionate lawyers. Lawyers gave up trying to say he was innocent a long time ago. In the end it was a political statement by the "left" to once again drag out the capital punishment debate back into the minds of the public and help "frame" one debate issue for the upcoming elections. His name will be once again draged out for public discourse at some point during the national debate this upcoming summer.
1)It turned into a political/public viewing case from the start.
2)2 Life Time movies and way to many 1 hour news shows has shed no light on what happened. But did a great job of swaying the viewers to one conclusion or the other.
3) Anti-Americanism and Italy sucks got invoked. Which once again put the actual case into the background as we spent a lot of time yelling about who sucks more.
So by the time we got to the actual case. We knew a lady was dead and trying to figure out who killed her.
In the end I think the legal system eventually got so "sick" of this and political/social pressure got to such a level that they just washed their hands of this entire thing and let her walk.
I have no clue if she was innocent or guilty but I do know at some point the powers that be just said to hell with it all. She might of got away with murder for all I know.
Compared to Davis who made the news back in 1989 and 2001 when he commited his crime and took that long to go to trial. He sat around for years and noone knew who the hell he was. It was not untill a firm date for his exectution was brought up that his case got some "pub". So his case was not marred by endless news coverage and mass media trying to sway the minds of the "public".
Even in the closing days before Davis was put to death the discussion was only heard in the political realms as the arguments pro/con of death penalty once again filled the air waves. Thus politicians starting to chim in, rememeber a big election cycle is coming up. Some would say the biggest one ever in the history of the United States. Even larger than the 1864 election year.
So the Davis case IMO was closed and shut by the last appeals court judge. Politically there was no gain to stay or proceed with the sentence. Politics had allmost nothing to do with the result. Unlike the Knox case were politics was allways lurking in the background. Politics on the Davis case was reduced to politicians making speeches to get it on the record for the election year.
So Davis was quilty in the eyes of the court. He had numerous appeals. It was not swift or rash, he was on death row since 2001, he commited his crime in 1989. SO if the evidence was so overwhelming of innocence was it all his lawyers fault? He had the top ACLU anti-death penalty lawyers on the case.
And that is the problem IMO...they were anti-death peanlty hacks in the end and not Davis is innocent, passionate lawyers. Lawyers gave up trying to say he was innocent a long time ago. In the end it was a political statement by the "left" to once again drag out the capital punishment debate back into the minds of the public and help "frame" one debate issue for the upcoming elections. His name will be once again draged out for public discourse at some point during the national debate this upcoming summer.
Posted by PainState on 2011-10-04 19:00:51
it was august of 1989 and 1991 when he went to trial and was put on death row...not 2001.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2011-10-04 19:10:10
I do see that maybe the OP was more partisan than i read it.
But the family of the dead girl are in pieces, and rightly feel they cannot grieve of forgive while clearly the truth is not known.
here are the problms with Knox's aquital:
1: She still refuses to answer the troubling questions to do with her phone being turned off and the state of the flat and presence of evidence pointing to her and her boyfriend.
2: The prosecutor is going to appeal, but she has fled italy knowing the american courts will never send her back, even if Italy now decides she is guilty.
3: She will now get rich, when she is CERTAINLY aware of more knowledge of the death than she has revealed.
4: She is portrayed as a victim, but was clearly involved, framed another man and expresses no remorse.
But the family of the dead girl are in pieces, and rightly feel they cannot grieve of forgive while clearly the truth is not known.
here are the problms with Knox's aquital:
1: She still refuses to answer the troubling questions to do with her phone being turned off and the state of the flat and presence of evidence pointing to her and her boyfriend.
2: The prosecutor is going to appeal, but she has fled italy knowing the american courts will never send her back, even if Italy now decides she is guilty.
3: She will now get rich, when she is CERTAINLY aware of more knowledge of the death than she has revealed.
4: She is portrayed as a victim, but was clearly involved, framed another man and expresses no remorse.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-10-04 19:31:57
well, I would have buggered off on a plane (or camel, yak, or moped) as soon as I got out too. Can't blame her for that.
Posted by soranos on 2011-10-04 19:44:18
As far as I am aware off the US has binding agreements with Western European countries that they will turn over suspects if they are residenting in their respective territory. but yeah, I guess political pressure could see through that.
Like I said, I would not want to make the call on her being guilty. My opinion on that seems to change every few hours. There are definately some very fishy stuff about her behavior. I don't buy her act. Even if she wasn't the murder, she knows more than she lets on...
Like I said, I would not want to make the call on her being guilty. My opinion on that seems to change every few hours. There are definately some very fishy stuff about her behavior. I don't buy her act. Even if she wasn't the murder, she knows more than she lets on...
Posted by Qaz on 2011-10-04 20:06:46
Politikken a Danish newspaper actually cited Knox for saying that she would like to to stay in Italy. But after 4 years in prisson (right or wrong) who can blame any one for wanting to go back home and spend some time with family? Despite there being holes in her testimony.
With out the deathpenalty you can always go back and revisit a case with new evidence and make up for any earlier mistakes. That alone should be reason enough to abolish capital punishment.
With out the deathpenalty you can always go back and revisit a case with new evidence and make up for any earlier mistakes. That alone should be reason enough to abolish capital punishment.
Posted by Arktoris on 2011-10-04 22:13:43
In my opinion, the Davis case should have had a full appeal trial like the Knox / Sollecito.
Instead, it got "reviews" by judges who determined if there's enough of a change in witness testimony to warrant a new trial. Multiple reviews came to the conclusion, no.
the full details of the changes in testimony I have not seen revealed and therefore cannot comment on whether his sentence was just.
I can say this however, unless witnesses are confident they saw another person wielding the firearm, the "smoking gun" evidence of that case is the fact that ballistics positively matched the bullets fired into MacPhail were from the same gun used to kill another man in which Davis was found guilty of killing. So either he's innocent in both cases, names the person he gave the gun to after killing the first victim, or he's guilty of both murders.
the Knox/Sollecito case has no "smoking gun" evidence. they were prosecuted on moderate suspicion and peripheral circumstancial evidence alone. Can't speak for the Italians, but here in the US, that shouldn't fly.
If you want to overturn the acquittal the key will be the suspect murder weapon. Checking for DNA was the mistake. that's a toolmarks case. Check the puncture wounds in the victim and see if they are consistent to the blade in length, width, point shape etc. especially if some of the stabs hit bone...then check for microscopic hackle marks consistent with the blade's. Did the alleged murder weapon have a broken tip...which could be found in the bones of meredith?
If the toolmarks case reveals strong evidence that this weapon was used to kill Meredith, and it was then found in sollecito's home....now...you have a smoking gun.
Can't find the source, but I do believe the toolmarks case was conducted here in the US by an independent forensic group and they determined the wounds delivered to Meredith were from a blade that is a 1/4 the size of the alleged DNA + murder weapon.
if the blade doesn't fit...you must acquit.
Instead, it got "reviews" by judges who determined if there's enough of a change in witness testimony to warrant a new trial. Multiple reviews came to the conclusion, no.
the full details of the changes in testimony I have not seen revealed and therefore cannot comment on whether his sentence was just.
I can say this however, unless witnesses are confident they saw another person wielding the firearm, the "smoking gun" evidence of that case is the fact that ballistics positively matched the bullets fired into MacPhail were from the same gun used to kill another man in which Davis was found guilty of killing. So either he's innocent in both cases, names the person he gave the gun to after killing the first victim, or he's guilty of both murders.
the Knox/Sollecito case has no "smoking gun" evidence. they were prosecuted on moderate suspicion and peripheral circumstancial evidence alone. Can't speak for the Italians, but here in the US, that shouldn't fly.
If you want to overturn the acquittal the key will be the suspect murder weapon. Checking for DNA was the mistake. that's a toolmarks case. Check the puncture wounds in the victim and see if they are consistent to the blade in length, width, point shape etc. especially if some of the stabs hit bone...then check for microscopic hackle marks consistent with the blade's. Did the alleged murder weapon have a broken tip...which could be found in the bones of meredith?
If the toolmarks case reveals strong evidence that this weapon was used to kill Meredith, and it was then found in sollecito's home....now...you have a smoking gun.
Can't find the source, but I do believe the toolmarks case was conducted here in the US by an independent forensic group and they determined the wounds delivered to Meredith were from a blade that is a 1/4 the size of the alleged DNA + murder weapon.
if the blade doesn't fit...you must acquit.
Posted by Qaz on 2011-10-05 00:31:57
Ok so to summ it up.
US guys: She is innocent or should at least be acquitted charges and the american justice system is good and just.
Italiens guys: We dont care about knox really but the Italien justice system is definitely good and far better than the system in the US.
English guys: She is guilty!
Rest of the world: We dont care about the case but the US judicial system definitely sux.
Thats my summ up of what people in this thread said :)
US guys: She is innocent or should at least be acquitted charges and the american justice system is good and just.
Italiens guys: We dont care about knox really but the Italien justice system is definitely good and far better than the system in the US.
English guys: She is guilty!
Rest of the world: We dont care about the case but the US judicial system definitely sux.
Thats my summ up of what people in this thread said :)
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-10-05 01:08:38
Well, the Scottish guy here thinks that all legal systems are flawed. I don't think there's enough evidence for murder but accessory to murder, attempting to pervert the course of justice, absolutely.
I also think the fact her sex life was put on trial was ridiculous.
I also think the fact her sex life was put on trial was ridiculous.
Posted by Enochulator on 2011-10-05 01:37:54
An interesting debate... A few thoughts:
1. Acquited does not mean innocent, not guilty does not mean innocent. Those terms mean the evidence laid down by prosecution has not been sufficient to convence a judge (or jury) that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
2. Eye witness testomony is "hard" evidence. Provided the witness has sufficient credibility and the process through which the accused was identified is fair and reasonable.
3. In the country I live in (New Zealand) one must be proved to be innocent before the judicary will pay for time wrongfully imprisoned. As I said before acquited does not mean innocent.
My own opinion...
Death penalty - yes where it is justified. There are some people in our world who will never ever contribute and will always take from others. They are violent and evil and if they are shunned by society to the point where they are imprisoned for the remaineder of their natural life, why should we feed, house, and cloth them?
Reducing Crime - Prison doesnt work but it gets offenders off the street and reduces their ability to create more victims. If one is searious about reducing crime long term a proactive programme needs to be instigated which breaks established patterns like family violence.
1. Acquited does not mean innocent, not guilty does not mean innocent. Those terms mean the evidence laid down by prosecution has not been sufficient to convence a judge (or jury) that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
2. Eye witness testomony is "hard" evidence. Provided the witness has sufficient credibility and the process through which the accused was identified is fair and reasonable.
3. In the country I live in (New Zealand) one must be proved to be innocent before the judicary will pay for time wrongfully imprisoned. As I said before acquited does not mean innocent.
My own opinion...
Death penalty - yes where it is justified. There are some people in our world who will never ever contribute and will always take from others. They are violent and evil and if they are shunned by society to the point where they are imprisoned for the remaineder of their natural life, why should we feed, house, and cloth them?
Reducing Crime - Prison doesnt work but it gets offenders off the street and reduces their ability to create more victims. If one is searious about reducing crime long term a proactive programme needs to be instigated which breaks established patterns like family violence.