Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-03-17 23:50:05

Why did it take you so long to play your turn? Maybe you should ask him for more time to think next time. I warn people first, before I timeout, but that my own choice, Its within the rules to timeout as 4 min plus turns are horrible for your opponent.

Posted by Dominik on 2014-03-18 00:00:21

There is a small but steady group of coaches who just need longer for their turns. Therefore it is very urgent to implement a signal tone when 3:30 minutes passed by so the coach can hurry up.

Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-03-18 00:18:46

Or you can just not take 4 minutes every god damn turn?

It's a 2 player game you know. The other guy has to wait in order to respond to dialogs whilst you meander over fairly basic decisions. Occasional 4 minute turns when the intensity is up wouldn't incur timeouts [vs me, not that this post is re: me] if you didn't take so long every single time. Value my time, and I'll give you yours.

Posted by fly on 2014-03-18 00:19:44

call it the luis suarez. whoever needs to employ any means to win, will time you out. even at the expense of a red card of whatever moral meaning.
when i play goblins i time out too. i can't tell if i would when needing the advantage in a major, but i guess i would do it too. plus i'm pissed at long turns, this ain't rocket science. i wanna be able to time you out if your turn takes longer than mine.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 00:46:00

play faster, it's the rules (unless your cat is on fire).

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 00:47:11

"Therefore it is very urgent to implement a signal tone when 3:30 minutes passed by so the coach can hurry up."

Why? Are they also blind, and therefore can't read a clock timer?

Posted by Dominik on 2014-03-18 00:53:56

Imagine how much slower those coaches would play if they additionally have to check the clock every few seconds. Well, this is the situation now but I bet they play faster with such a little feature.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 01:00:45

Oh; come on.....anyone who needs to time out an oppo in order to prevent him from scoring does not deserve it to win; imo.

I played over 1,000 matches, and I am not a slow playing player.
I would say that the turns before the timeout were all regular and pretty fast.

And then....one turn, which was a little tricky...and yes; I did some thinking and it was hard to decide, and then not everything turned out as it was supposed to, but timing out during the last sequence of action....pffft.

As I said; it was passing and rushing thereafter; so it was a think of 10 more seconds...probably shorter; but yeah; the chance was not too bad that I would score.....so; really sensible to stop me there.

Posted by Kam on 2014-03-18 01:06:15

Drink more, think less!

Honnestly, what happens in a tournament stays in the tournament. Time out, naama, stall during 7 turns to foul every single fling on the pitch... that's why everybody love tourneys.

Posted by Anzelak on 2014-03-18 01:08:01

I'm slow as crap. People often bitch about it. But I've probably gone over the 4 minute mark three or four times in over 300 games. I'm not sure you have a leg to stand on here.

Posted by Lorebass on 2014-03-18 01:09:26

yeah,, i'd report that if you were working on your turn albeit slowly. but only if no warning was given. We have separate admins that deal with tourney fun but in the end it depends on what happened.

Posted by easilyamused on 2014-03-18 01:16:29

3 things

1. It was a major, people become far more competitive in majors and will play to the letter of the law, can you say rules lawyer?

2. A timer? Are you serious? Just move your fingers quicker. 4 mins is a long time and pretty much everything you need to do is automated! Stop over thinking your turns!

3. This blog is full of fael, I feel sad reading it and even sadder commenting on it. I should have just deleted the whole thing.....

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 01:16:43

Well; that's the thing....nothing happened before (also no warning, because there ws never a need to); it came out of the blue to me.
Quick turns before; fine chatting, business as usual....and then POW! In da face....

But anyways...there is nothing to report about. As someone stated before..it is in the rules, and there is a button, so? Let's forget sportsmanship and the fact that we gather here to have some fun, together.

Posted by Cavetroll on 2014-03-18 01:26:38

I will say this, if you and your opponent were chatting consistently through the 1st half and they 'set you up' to time you out, that's wrong.

Posted by Kam on 2014-03-18 01:28:57

Mate, that's a competition. No, it's not just a competition, it's a show.

Last GLT I Naama'ed my opponent. He only had one tree left OT. I even used my wiz on him, just... because. That's how tourneys are. Win, nomatter what. And steal the show. Nomatter what as well. And you know what? I'm still in my opponent's buddy list.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 01:37:11

Yes; you are right...it is a competition, but it also is supposed to be fun.
Well; I would not mind fouling and killing; I also like splashing pixels, but a timeout in this kind of a situation is complete nonsense to me (I am not starting about respecting the oppo or the game itself); but yeah...we all have different perspectives on these things.

Posted by Anzelak on 2014-03-18 01:42:20

Ah. That sucks then. If you're chatting away and he popped it.

Report that crap :D

Posted by Kam on 2014-03-18 01:43:32

Ok. Same tournament. One game later, the qualifer final. I bashed my opponent during the first half. 1-0 for the Sammiches. Then everything backfires. My opponent decides to stall untill t16, but... he forgot to score, offering me the victory.

I obviously didn't see that coming, but if I has, would I have warned him? I don't think so. Would you have?

Posted by Anzelak on 2014-03-18 01:46:20

Yeah, stay in focus though. This is about a timeout that came out of nowhere by the sounds of it rather than a guy who's silent and snailing.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 02:01:11

That's the point...out of nowhere.
Just to get it right; he did not set me up or anything, and we did not chat a lot during this particular turn, as I was really too desperate to get it right there. And yes; I took longer in this ONE turn than I was supposed to; however, all I want to say is that it was a fine match until then...and it would have been till the end without this incident, but it ruined it to me in some sense.

I mean; I come here to have a good time; and yes...being bashed away or having an oppo playing well and deciding then to stall is all fine with me, as it is part of the game.
You may argue that the timeout limit is too, and you are right, regarding only the rules, it in fact is. But to me; Blood Bowl, and especially here on FUMBBL, is more than this.

But probably I should wake up up dreaming.

Posted by albinv on 2014-03-18 02:07:07

I need my time, probably for stupid moves, as i rarely come up with different ones.

I dont like it and i see the problem with it, but what can i do? I was reasonably fast once, now my games rarely end under 1:24 i must confess. Im all for the 4min limit, as honestly it is too much time accumulated to invest in a single match of boardgame.

I think a beep at 3 mins or something would be a good thing actually. Its not all black and white, there are certainly coaches like me who see the problem and would welcome help to get faster.

Posted by smallman on 2014-03-18 02:41:33

I am slower than most, as I like to optimize my moves. Stop thinking to check the clock is not a good idea for me. I play fast when I hear the 4min timer, would love a warning at 3.30 though.

Getting the win by timing someone out seems pathetic to me.

Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-03-18 02:43:20

I dont think I have ever been timed out. Maybe because I fail some stupid roll before the 4 min are up.

Posted by albinv on 2014-03-18 03:12:46

Uhm yeah, and ofc ive also lost matches to being timed out. And as much as i can understand the problem (guess i expressed so clearly)...you know, there are those timeouts that are different were you can be almost sure its not a general principle but to prevent a loss. ;)

Even had a game where i wasnt timed out on some ocassions only to be timed out on the game winning move. but that was long ago, under a different ruleset, things were a lot more emotional back then anyway. Still a funny tale of hypocrisy. ;)

Yeah, no big deal or politics, just sharing some thoughts and experiences. A beep about 3 mins (optional to toggle) would be nice though, and maybe help a bit with the problem it really can be.

Posted by Chainsaw on 2014-03-18 03:30:49

> Getting the win by timing someone out seems pathetic to me.

Smallman, you are in no position to judge anything as pathetic, I hope you realise this. Your minmax teams are a cancer on the site.

Posted by MattDakka on 2014-03-18 03:38:44

Implementing an automated time out in the competitive divisions (not in League division, though) would solve the issue.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 03:43:31

Or acting like two sensible grown up humans sitting together at the table over a fine GAME might also solve the problem. Who are we? Some six year olds?

Posted by MattDakka on 2014-03-18 03:53:09

The problem is that expecting people to behave like grown up adults may lead to disappointment.
Stop dreaming, face the reality.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 04:24:14

it's a rule, as much as using the FOUL button

in a tourny, some people will use ALL THE RULES (like fouling)

I really don't see what the complaint is about, given that it was a tourney.

Sure, in a normal game it is a bit of a douche move, but in a tourney the gloves are usually off in every way.

caveat ludor.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 04:39:48

one might also suggest that the "six year old" here is the person who can't handle the game rules being used, and instead pleads for special treatment. Just saying.

Posted by Malmir on 2014-03-18 07:20:14

I think I've only been timed out once about two years ago. I'd told him I needed to go afk and when I got back he waited about ten seconds before hitting the to button. Don't think I moved another player in the rest of the game - my attitude was, if it is that important to you, much more so than to me, you can have it.

I've never timed someone out and would only do so if they were repeatedly going over and I'd warned them first. To me it's unsporting to do so except in the circumstance above where they are consistently wasting your time. I've had chances to time out in a tounrey and could have been timed out too on a couple of occasions. Neither happened because most coaches want to beat the oppositions best efforts, not simply win by default. They also want to feel good about themselves when they look in the mirror. You have my sympathy Urrghs.

Posted by smallman on 2014-03-18 07:33:16

@chainsaw I have only had 1 minmax team, and this doesn't prevent me from sharing my opinion

Posted by albinv on 2014-03-18 07:56:19

@Malmir lol - i kind of like that. There was no better card you could play to teach the guy i guess. He must have had fun hitting the beloved time out button over and over.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 08:13:34

@malmir - going afk is another story.

it is clearly against the rules to time out someone who has been afk.

Posted by Frankenstein on 2014-03-18 09:26:12

If there'd be anything wrong with timing out players who need more than 4 minutes for a turn, then there wouldn't be a time-out button/option. According to what you say, there was actually nothing wrong with your opponent timing you out. I do agree that an earlier warning (3:00 or 3:30 or some kind of ticking clock for the last minute) would be appropriate though.

Having said that: To me, excruciatingly slow players are the worst thing on FUMBBL. Therefore I'll always time out my opponents in a competitive game unless my opponent provides a valid reason in advance. League games are a different pair of shoes though (here I'll definitely try to find out what the issue is).

@pythrr: Are you really sure that it's against the rules to time-out afk-players? If so, how do you find out whether your opponent is afk or just thinking, stalling etc.

Posted by Verminardo on 2014-03-18 10:19:33

I get this. Most of the time it's reasonable to expect someone to complete their turn in 4 minutes or actually much less than that, but there just are those turns where you think 30 seconds about using your wizard or not, and then another 30 seconds before you even move your first player, and then you don't get that Pow you really needed, and need to think again, and so you go over 4 minutes. I don't time out when that happens. As Malmir said, I don't want to win that way.

As a rule of thumb, when my opponent goes over the time limit twice on turns that aren't particularly challenging, I give him time out warning. If he does it a third time, I may choose to time out though I can't really remember an instance when I actually did it.

Far more annoying than going over the 4 minutes line in a challenging turn, to my mind, is taking 3:50 on even the most simple turns. And for some reason, the worst thing to me is opponents who constantly start an action and then abandon it, and then start it again and abandon it again. ;)

Posted by C3I2 on 2014-03-18 12:09:11

They do that to see the block dice markings on the surrounding players V.

I actually got timed out the first turn wo moving a player one time. I had memory issues, and the client were very slow, so I was trying to close down software to be able to play. In the end it was to much work finding an admin to cancel the game so we played on from 1-0 to my oppo at my turn two.

Posted by MattDakka on 2014-03-18 15:20:42

The problem of not timing out a coach who claims to be afk/have real life issues is that we can't check if he's saying the truth or just lying in order to waste time/thinking more than his allowed time limit to find the best possible move, so the best approach is to enforce the 4 minutes automated time out, no more flames against the opponent coach, because the time out would be applied by the client.
Moreover, if we want to play in a competitive environment, rules must be equal and standard for everybody.
The fact that some coaches time out as soon as possible while others don't actually creates a difference in the competitive environment.
If you think that an automated time out is bad then we could add a client option to toggle, at the start of the match, the automated time out on/off for like-minded coaches who want to play in such way.
In this way you at least know that you are going to be timed out as soon as the 4 minutes are over.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 17:38:18

I did not want to force a discussion about handling this issue within the client.

As the title says; it is my whining about it.
But I like the discussion about good sportsmanship and how differently people see it here. However; I am also a little surprised as after all my games on FUMBBL I have nerver encountered this kind of an attitude.

Yes; I had oppos, who asked me to play faster once or twice (I can't remember if I was a rookie then or just drunk, or them just complaining about 2 minutes turns), but this was fine with me, as I think that you should communicate things during the game if something pisses you off; and this is what they did.

And now I ask myself....should I time out also the next time when the 4min. are reached? Just like that; without a word? Is this the path FUMBBL should go down for? Well; I've made my decision, and it was a no brainer really, even after the match last night.

Anf for those who argue with the Major thing. For me it is even less understandable, why someone would do it in a tourney.
In standard games people are in different situation; sometimes in haste; sometimes drunk, anyways....the matches do not really count. But in a tourney....those should be the top matches here and the #1 place to show good sportmanship.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 17:58:47

@pythrr: Are you really sure that it's against the rules to time-out afk-players? If so, how do you find out whether your opponent is afk or just thinking, stalling etc.

--

yes it is. ask any admin.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 18:02:15

@Urrghs:

"he #1 place to show good sportsmanship."

Yes, and it is good sportsmanship to respect the rules of the game. And the 4 minutes timeout is a rule of the game. Ergo...

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 18:10:19

@pythrr:
"Yes, and it is good sportsmanship to respect the rules of the game. And the 4 minutes timeout is a rule of the game..."

True; however, it is up to anyone to decide how he handles this button. Still, it is my opinion to see it as bad sportsmanship.

And well; I do respect this specific rule, which is why I do not start to discuss the rule itself.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 18:19:19

Well, your opinion has nothing to do with anyone else.

It is as weak an argument as the coach who views 16 turns of gang fouling as "poor sportsmanship"

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 19:02:19

@pythrr:
"Well, your opinion has nothing to do with anyone else."

Well; it has to do with those who agree.
What kind of an argument is this? Is it not the typical case that people with different opinions on the same topic come together? Is it not the starting point of discussions? If we all would agree on anything, then we would not need to discuss them, right?

I can have my opinion as anyone else; and if someone regards this particular behaviour as good sprtsmanship, then be it....I will not be able to convince him. How could I?

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 19:10:48

And my point was...that most of the coaches here would never behave this way (based on my experiences during the past >1000 games). And this is what this FUMBBL community ia all about.

Posted by albinv on 2014-03-18 19:41:50

I think MattDakka might have said it best. A timeout that only applies if both coaches agreed on it might be the best.

As others said, there are those plays that take time, even for the seasoned really competitive coaches who do their turns in about one minute. It would be sad to win or lose such matches on a time out and actually i would assume - that naturally - people would understand how sorry it would be to remove every human judgement from this and let it all be handed and decided by a machine for us.

Sometimes the lack of willingness to see the other guys perspective (assume he sits in front of you, as that is what the game was designed for to begin with) of some of the powerplaying coaches here is just sad, actually lets you question their basic common sense. In some cases it even seems its not a lack of will, but that the most basic skills of empathy and human behaviour/ manners have been removed for a machine like way of perceiving and "interacting" with your environment.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 19:42:49

my point is that Sportmanship (in my opinion) is not about the rules. It is about those aspects of the games that fall outside of the rules (chatting, saying grats, saying "no worries" when your opponent needs to go for a wee, not being a dick, etc) You can't castigate people for poor sportsmanship for simply following the rules correctly.

imho

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-18 20:14:48

When you follow this line of argument pythrr, then you should wonder, why for example in soccer games the ball is shot off the field when someone is injured. This is not in the rules, but it is common sense...so is with many other situations in sports. It is not always just about the rules.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 21:18:24

Urrghs - you'll find that that is a matter of opinion. The referee is supposed to stop the game in the case of a serious injury, but many teams play on if someone is just sitting down with a sore foot or cramp.

Poor analogy.

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 21:19:21

And in a non-serious game (like my old man's team), we kick the ball out all the time. In a serious "tournament" game, teams are less willing to do so.

Posted by happygrue on 2014-03-18 21:53:59

I have been timed out before. Sometimes it seems totally fair, and a few times it seemed like a jerk move, but whatever. There is only one time that it REALLY bothered me. It was high up in a major tournament, we were playing at a bad time for me after a lot of scheduling issues. Given the back and forth and several afk movements for me and my opponent saying "no rush" mere minutes before, I had a long turn where I had a chance to score. Instead he timed me out without warning. This very likely cost me the game. Given that we had been back and forth in PMs about various RL issues and I was bending over backwards to play at a time good for him, rather than good for me... this seemed like a real jerk move. Doubtless some spectators thought it was deserved, as I did *not* say afk beforehand. Then again, I had one more guy to move, the guy with the ball who had to dodge and score. I felt it was pretty unfair, but at that time I was new enough to FUMBBL that I also didn't know to pause the game and seek the admins.

But here's the thing: It's just a game. Later on, he went over and the fans were howling for me to time him out. I did not. The first time someone goes over on their clock I assume something was up and let it go - if it doesn't come up again no problem! Was he a jerk about this (and less than a great sport about some other things)? Sure. But that doesn't mean I have to be. He won the game, I learned something. There are a great many things we can do in this game to be jerks, rules or no. You can't assume everyone is going to be a good sport but there are plenty of good sports out there. All you can really do is make sure YOU are a good sport and hope the karma catches up. :D

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-18 21:56:16

Well, if he said "no rush", then it sounds like a douche move (esp. since you were accommodating him by playing at a weird time). It's all about context.

Posted by Kam on 2014-03-18 23:25:22

I once did a jerk time out. I was playing with my flings against a very good coach, I was kinda new to the site and in need for victories... ONE time during the whole game, he took more than four mins to play. He still had to move the BC, one of my trees was in range... I pressed the button. That was a jerk move. Yet, I'm not sure I wouldn't do it again in a tourney. In a regular match, no (unless the other coach has somehow been a jerk as well during the game).

Yet, I remember I time out'ed someone else in a regular game. The guy used to take 3'50'' every turn to play. I warned him once, twice... and I pressed the button. And I totally assume this one. Taking too long to play can frustrate and destabilize your opponent. Why wouldn't you press the button in this case, so the other coach will also be penalized for his gameplay?

That being said, I would never press the button if my opponent has a RL emergency, even if it's going to the loo after too many beers. ;)

Posted by Verminardo on 2014-03-18 23:31:02

@ pythrr:

"my point is that Sportmanship (in my opinion) is not about the rules."

Really? I think it's *all* about the rules. Or rather, about not insisting on the rules because it would be unsportsmanlike. In a football match, when the opposing team plays the ball out because one of your players is injured and needs treatment, *by the rules* you get the ball, but you give it back because that's good sportsmanship.

Where is that ominous rule about 4 minute time-outs anyway? I would like to review the exact wording.

Posted by Verminardo on 2014-03-18 23:38:08

Ah, found it, it's on p. 7 of CRP rulebook. It's simply a turnover when the turn time limit runs out. Well that doesn't leave much room for interpretation.^^

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-19 00:08:25

This is what I mean; it is a rule, but not forced by the client, so up to us the players to decide from case to case.

And in some cases it is about sportsmanship; all I was saying.

Posted by MattDakka on 2014-03-19 01:34:52

The point is that we don't have enough and sure informations to decide about timing out or not (when I play tabletop I see my opponent, on internet I don't), so an automated, "impersonal" time out solves the problem, it's in the rules after all, otherwise everybody can ever write "real life issue" in the client chat and have an excuse to avoid the time out according to the site rules, it's quite ridicolous (mind, I'm not insinuating that all the coaches writing "real life issues" are liars, but somebody could exploit this).
If you have a real life problem and you lose the match suck it up, it's a game, not a matter of life or death.
I guess that an automated time out would have a positive effect (coaches would learn to speed up and wouldn't wrongly assume, to their great disappointment as I read in this blog, that their opponent wouldn't time out them, because the time out would be 100% sure at 4 minutes mark.
Think about this: if we allow coaches to decide whether to time out or not their opponent (i.e. allow them to decide following their common sense), for the same reason we should allow coaches to let their opponents take their move back when they misclick and suffer a turnover.
Nobody blames his opponent when he misclicks and fails a move,why?
Because the turnover is automated!
Imagine what would happen IF you could allow your opponent to make his move again... and you didn't let him take back his move, the whining would start!
So let's put all the responsability of the turnovers on the client, not on the opponent coach and things will be better.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-19 01:56:13

I see your point, and you are right in some sense. But; so far we do not have it automated and most of the time people handle it appropriately. Again; for me this whining post was not about rules or anything, it was about two guys trying to have fun over a Blood Bowl game, and that things like (in situations like these) that can ruin it; as it did for me

Posted by pythrr on 2014-03-19 04:45:42

indeed

so the optional nature of the 4 minute rule is a house rule

which fumbbl states that is seeks to avoid.

discuss

Posted by koadah on 2014-03-19 11:54:38

You could always go play cyanide if you like the auto timeout rule.

That is much better as we know.

Posted by Urrghs on 2014-03-19 13:25:05

@pythrr:
"...which fumbbl states that is seeks to avoid"

Could you tell me, where you found thsz? Thx.

Posted by MattDakka on 2014-03-19 14:25:14

The auto timeout is better indeed, but the peer to peer connectivity, the lack of teams and star player is worse.