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2009-12-15 17:16:06
26 votes, rating 4.3
26 votes, rating 4.3
Elfballing tyrants
Grabbed from a blog comment I wrote earlier today in response to pertinent comments made many moons ago by the Great Fatwahn, and my own personal hero, shadow.
My thoughts on the oft-discussed concept of elfballing:
Dear Deirdre,
Since I played shadow about six months ago, I've been putting on some weight.
However, I'm far more concerned with how contagious elfballing could be. I've found myself avoiding playing using my high elf and wood elf teams. I want to, oh God I want to, but I know that accepting an offer from the first grateful lightweight team that spots me is just too easy to accept...
Three points: first - any coach putting his elf team on the playlist finds it easy to select from a range of potential games. Every coach will try and select an advantageous game. It's remedial to suggest that someone who does is an elfballer. Theoretically, that line of argument would suggest that any high-TR dwarf or chaos team is an elfballer when playing just about any other race. Some may talk about challenge, but team-building is as much a part of the game as team breaking.
Second, it is silly to suggest that an elf team should prioritise playing a proportionate amount of bashy teams. While one-off games may well be favourable, I doubt that many elf teams would be well situated LONG TERM to mount any kind of challenge when it comes to tournaments over 200TR (number pulled out of the air, but consider it reflective of a level at which MB/DP/claw, etc start to have long-term effect). Suggesting they should not will hurt the diversity of races in the high-TR tourneys. I, for one am not in favour, and would wish to see better diversity, not less.
Third, have you any idea how expensive it is for high elves and dark elves to travel to the Old World to stage frequent matches against orcs and skaven? A boat, coaches, armed guards to get through the mountains, interpreters, negotiators. The list goes on! Or what about the hiring costs for a herd of pegasi? Think that's cheap, do you? Orcs have got Vamps, chaos dwarves, skaven, other orcs, goblins, chaos, dwarves, humans and Khemri within close distance. And with dwarves - every major bashy race on their doorstep! I mean, that's why they've got long-term wealth reserves as a species to draw on - lower overheads!
In conclusion: LEAF IT ALONE!
My thoughts on the oft-discussed concept of elfballing:
Dear Deirdre,
Since I played shadow about six months ago, I've been putting on some weight.
However, I'm far more concerned with how contagious elfballing could be. I've found myself avoiding playing using my high elf and wood elf teams. I want to, oh God I want to, but I know that accepting an offer from the first grateful lightweight team that spots me is just too easy to accept...
Three points: first - any coach putting his elf team on the playlist finds it easy to select from a range of potential games. Every coach will try and select an advantageous game. It's remedial to suggest that someone who does is an elfballer. Theoretically, that line of argument would suggest that any high-TR dwarf or chaos team is an elfballer when playing just about any other race. Some may talk about challenge, but team-building is as much a part of the game as team breaking.
Second, it is silly to suggest that an elf team should prioritise playing a proportionate amount of bashy teams. While one-off games may well be favourable, I doubt that many elf teams would be well situated LONG TERM to mount any kind of challenge when it comes to tournaments over 200TR (number pulled out of the air, but consider it reflective of a level at which MB/DP/claw, etc start to have long-term effect). Suggesting they should not will hurt the diversity of races in the high-TR tourneys. I, for one am not in favour, and would wish to see better diversity, not less.
Third, have you any idea how expensive it is for high elves and dark elves to travel to the Old World to stage frequent matches against orcs and skaven? A boat, coaches, armed guards to get through the mountains, interpreters, negotiators. The list goes on! Or what about the hiring costs for a herd of pegasi? Think that's cheap, do you? Orcs have got Vamps, chaos dwarves, skaven, other orcs, goblins, chaos, dwarves, humans and Khemri within close distance. And with dwarves - every major bashy race on their doorstep! I mean, that's why they've got long-term wealth reserves as a species to draw on - lower overheads!
In conclusion: LEAF IT ALONE!
Comments
Posted by Calthor on 2009-12-15 17:29:49
Third argument is defintely the best.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-15 20:00:34
"Second, it is silly to suggest that an elf team should prioritise playing a proportionate amount of bashy teams. While one-off games may well be favourable, I doubt that many elf teams would be well situated LONG TERM to mount any kind of challenge when it comes to tournaments over 200TR (number pulled out of the air, but consider it reflective of a level at which MB/DP/claw, etc start to have long-term effect). Suggesting they should not will hurt the diversity of races in the high-TR tourneys. I, for one am not in favour, and would wish to see better diversity, not less."
Actually, elves do very well at high TR after having played against a variety of opponents. They certainly do as well as, say, dwarves. Sure, they suffer more casualties along the way, but they compensate by having access to better players. A TR 220 elven team will typically outclass and beat a TR260 dwarf team more often than not.
If you want more diversity, force elven teams to play a variety of opponents before they can enter. That way, other races will be able to start winning majors too. Right now, the diversity is not there and dark elves and wood elves are among the dominating races.
Actually, elves do very well at high TR after having played against a variety of opponents. They certainly do as well as, say, dwarves. Sure, they suffer more casualties along the way, but they compensate by having access to better players. A TR 220 elven team will typically outclass and beat a TR260 dwarf team more often than not.
If you want more diversity, force elven teams to play a variety of opponents before they can enter. That way, other races will be able to start winning majors too. Right now, the diversity is not there and dark elves and wood elves are among the dominating races.
Posted by PhoenixxX on 2009-12-15 23:07:29
Yeah, dominating... and you see this where zombie69?
Major tourney stats (MadTias keeps record), hmm 5 orcs - 5 WE; 3 CD - 3 DE
just counting winners here. If you look at Top8 spots, it gets A LOT bashier
I could as easily argue that Orcs and CDs are the dominating races in majors.
Tourneys below TR200? How many are won by elves?
In conclusion: if its so easy to win a major with elves, i really wonder, why in hell are most people applying with Orcs, Chaos, CDs, Dorfs and so on...
Really Zombie69, climb down from your elfbowlingisbroken mountain
ps: Orcs is the broken race in BB
Major tourney stats (MadTias keeps record), hmm 5 orcs - 5 WE; 3 CD - 3 DE
just counting winners here. If you look at Top8 spots, it gets A LOT bashier
I could as easily argue that Orcs and CDs are the dominating races in majors.
Tourneys below TR200? How many are won by elves?
In conclusion: if its so easy to win a major with elves, i really wonder, why in hell are most people applying with Orcs, Chaos, CDs, Dorfs and so on...
Really Zombie69, climb down from your elfbowlingisbroken mountain
ps: Orcs is the broken race in BB
Posted by CircularLogic on 2009-12-15 23:33:21
A TS 220 elven team that has elfbowled it`s way there is just as strong as an elven team that has played a variety of opponents. That`s true - just the way to get there is longer and the likelyhood to get a really strong team is greatly reduced.
TS220 elves outclassing TS260 dorfs - I`m not sure about that. At least, when there is no wizard involved, a commodity no elven team can afford each game at those TR levels. Besides - if that`s the case why do your woodies have faced one dwarven team in 180 games and your DEs have faced 1 dwarven team in 79 games? And also why have your DE played only 4 bashy races in their last 20 games? Are there just elves on the finder at high TR in the US timezones?
TS220 elves outclassing TS260 dorfs - I`m not sure about that. At least, when there is no wizard involved, a commodity no elven team can afford each game at those TR levels. Besides - if that`s the case why do your woodies have faced one dwarven team in 180 games and your DEs have faced 1 dwarven team in 79 games? And also why have your DE played only 4 bashy races in their last 20 games? Are there just elves on the finder at high TR in the US timezones?
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 01:49:47
"Yeah, dominating... and you see this where zombie69?
Major tourney stats (MadTias keeps record), hmm 5 orcs - 5 WE; 3 CD - 3 DE just counting winners here."
You just proved my point. Even though elves only account for 4 of the 21 races, they occupy the first and third spot in tournament wins. I believe high elves have 2 wins as well, iirc. If that's not dominating, nothing is.
Major tourney stats (MadTias keeps record), hmm 5 orcs - 5 WE; 3 CD - 3 DE just counting winners here."
You just proved my point. Even though elves only account for 4 of the 21 races, they occupy the first and third spot in tournament wins. I believe high elves have 2 wins as well, iirc. If that's not dominating, nothing is.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 01:52:07
"TS220 elves outclassing TS260 dorfs - I`m not sure about that. At least, when there is no wizard involved, a commodity no elven team can afford each game at those TR levels."
Affording something that costs 50k per game isn't hard. For elfbowlers, it's even easier, as they can enter the tournament with tons of cash in treasury already.
Affording something that costs 50k per game isn't hard. For elfbowlers, it's even easier, as they can enter the tournament with tons of cash in treasury already.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 02:17:11
"And also why have your DE played only 4 bashy races in their last 20 games?"
I don't know what you count as basher, but i count 10 in their last 20. Even if you consider lizardmen and necro as non-bashy, then which one of the following 6 games do you consider to be against non-bashy teams : dwarf, chaos, chaos dwarf, rotters, orc, chaos.
"Are there just elves on the finder at high TR in the US timezones?"
Yeah, my dark elves definitely play against elves all the time. That's why 10 of their 79 games played were against the 4 elven races combined, while they played 17 against chaos and 12 against orcs.
My wood elves used to elfbowl a very long time ago before i saw the light, but if you look at their last 30 games, 4 of them were against elves, while 11 were against orcs. If you wanna pick on my teams, do the proper research first.
I don't know what you count as basher, but i count 10 in their last 20. Even if you consider lizardmen and necro as non-bashy, then which one of the following 6 games do you consider to be against non-bashy teams : dwarf, chaos, chaos dwarf, rotters, orc, chaos.
"Are there just elves on the finder at high TR in the US timezones?"
Yeah, my dark elves definitely play against elves all the time. That's why 10 of their 79 games played were against the 4 elven races combined, while they played 17 against chaos and 12 against orcs.
My wood elves used to elfbowl a very long time ago before i saw the light, but if you look at their last 30 games, 4 of them were against elves, while 11 were against orcs. If you wanna pick on my teams, do the proper research first.
Posted by CircularLogic on 2009-12-16 09:41:09
The classic bashy races, orcs/khemri/dorfs/chaos are played 4 times in the last 20 games. If you throw in rotters, necros and CD as bashers, then it`s 7/20. Apparently you count lizzies and humans as bashers...
Posted by Archevol on 2009-12-16 10:28:20
"You just proved my point. Even though elves only account for 4 of the 21 races, they occupy the first and third spot in tournament wins. I believe high elves have 2 wins as well, iirc. If that's not dominating, nothing is."
... surely that proves MY point as well? They've been able to compete because elfballing has occurred and the teams were in good condition to play coming into the tourney... I'm in favour!
I do not doubt that the number of elfy wins would be a lot lower if the winning teams regularly played dorfs/etc with similar TR. I just can't see elf teams thriving LONG TERM playing with AV6 (from MB) against tacklers. Whereas, while orcs & chaos etc may lose one-off games, attrition makes them long-term winners.
... surely that proves MY point as well? They've been able to compete because elfballing has occurred and the teams were in good condition to play coming into the tourney... I'm in favour!
I do not doubt that the number of elfy wins would be a lot lower if the winning teams regularly played dorfs/etc with similar TR. I just can't see elf teams thriving LONG TERM playing with AV6 (from MB) against tacklers. Whereas, while orcs & chaos etc may lose one-off games, attrition makes them long-term winners.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 15:34:07
"The classic bashy races, orcs/khemri/dorfs/chaos are played 4 times in the last 20 games. If you throw in rotters, necros and CD as bashers, then it`s 7/20. Apparently you count lizzies and humans as bashers..."
I don't count humans as bashers. I played twice against chaos, and if you think rotters (bashier than chaos), chaos dwarves (9 AV9 players with strength access and the rest being cheap dirty players), necros (as bashy as undead) and lizardmen (7 ST4+ players with strength access) don't count as bashers, you've got a weird idea of what a bashy team is.
I don't count humans as bashers. I played twice against chaos, and if you think rotters (bashier than chaos), chaos dwarves (9 AV9 players with strength access and the rest being cheap dirty players), necros (as bashy as undead) and lizardmen (7 ST4+ players with strength access) don't count as bashers, you've got a weird idea of what a bashy team is.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 15:37:22
"... surely that proves MY point as well? They've been able to compete because elfballing has occurred and the teams were in good condition to play coming into the tourney... I'm in favour!"
First, they didn't just compete, they dominated. Second, many of those wins were from non-elfbowling teams (e.g. PeteW's dark elves), proving that it can be done.
First, they didn't just compete, they dominated. Second, many of those wins were from non-elfbowling teams (e.g. PeteW's dark elves), proving that it can be done.
Posted by Archevol on 2009-12-16 16:17:41
non elf-balling, you say? Yet even despite Pete's other obvious qualities, his retired darkelf and welf winning teams have an overwhelming number of games against non-bashy opponents... Check for yourself.
Bringing up coach stats does not preclude the validity of any comment. It's fair to say that elves have claimed a fair share of tourney wins. However, I don't believe that there would have been so many winners without quality elfpicking. And to call it 'dominating' undoubtedly overlooks a number of pertinent factors.
The bottom line is it happens, and I think that, to a certain extent, it should be looked at in a more positive framework. Not necessarily encouraged, more accepted that it'll have to happen if we want to get a decent balance of entrants into higher TR tourneys.
Bringing up coach stats does not preclude the validity of any comment. It's fair to say that elves have claimed a fair share of tourney wins. However, I don't believe that there would have been so many winners without quality elfpicking. And to call it 'dominating' undoubtedly overlooks a number of pertinent factors.
The bottom line is it happens, and I think that, to a certain extent, it should be looked at in a more positive framework. Not necessarily encouraged, more accepted that it'll have to happen if we want to get a decent balance of entrants into higher TR tourneys.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-16 17:20:26
The reason there aren't many elves entering tournaments isn't because they don't do well, as the stats clearly show that they do extremely well (orcs also do well, but you'd expect that with so many entries, but that elves can do well with so few applications is truly overwhelming).
No, the reason is that people don't want to get their players killed, and have the false idea that one needs high AV to have a chance to win a major. If you want more elves to enter, you need to change people's attitude, not the team's competitiveness. Good luck with that.
No, the reason is that people don't want to get their players killed, and have the false idea that one needs high AV to have a chance to win a major. If you want more elves to enter, you need to change people's attitude, not the team's competitiveness. Good luck with that.
Posted by Archevol on 2009-12-16 17:28:28
I've yet to say that elves do poorly at tourneys. My statement was that I doubt many elf teams can sustain a long term challenge when it comes to tourneys over 200TR (number out of a hat, as stated).
Only a few enter, which I think, on the whole, supports my opinion that too few high-TR elf teams are strong enough to enter. I'd agree that the attitude issue on which you commented is pertinent - and part of that is also awareness that the pretty pixels will often subsequently die, leading to a series of recovery games (that bashers will generally not need), and accusations of elfballing (again).
Cheers for the debate. Onto the next one! 8)
Only a few enter, which I think, on the whole, supports my opinion that too few high-TR elf teams are strong enough to enter. I'd agree that the attitude issue on which you commented is pertinent - and part of that is also awareness that the pretty pixels will often subsequently die, leading to a series of recovery games (that bashers will generally not need), and accusations of elfballing (again).
Cheers for the debate. Onto the next one! 8)