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2013-03-26 02:13:02
21 votes, rating 3.3
21 votes, rating 3.3
Throwers
I used to be a thrower guy. I'm not anymore.
As a coach, I seem to need to learn things the hard way. Here I am advocating for investing TV in a skaven thrower. My how one's perception changes. I do still use a thrower on rookie skaven teams, but strictly for leader and I'm not planning on rebuying him when he dies.
My retired teams section is filled with elf teams with throwers, retired when they hit 1500+ and stop winning games. Maybe if this team, or this team, or this team hadn't had 130-150tv tied up in a mainly offensive player, they might not have needed to be retired. Certianly my Wood Elves haven't missed a thrower, so why would my other teams need one?
Time for a fresh start, and a new outlook. Throwers are great, but they cost too much, and take the place of a catcher. A wise man once told me that you can only protect 5 positionals with elves. For me at least, a thrower won't be one of them, at least not anymore.
As a coach, I seem to need to learn things the hard way. Here I am advocating for investing TV in a skaven thrower. My how one's perception changes. I do still use a thrower on rookie skaven teams, but strictly for leader and I'm not planning on rebuying him when he dies.
My retired teams section is filled with elf teams with throwers, retired when they hit 1500+ and stop winning games. Maybe if this team, or this team, or this team hadn't had 130-150tv tied up in a mainly offensive player, they might not have needed to be retired. Certianly my Wood Elves haven't missed a thrower, so why would my other teams need one?
Time for a fresh start, and a new outlook. Throwers are great, but they cost too much, and take the place of a catcher. A wise man once told me that you can only protect 5 positionals with elves. For me at least, a thrower won't be one of them, at least not anymore.
Comments
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-03-26 02:29:47
I would have thought a sure hands / dump off / nerves of steel thrower would be an asset to wood elves on defense as well as offense.
Posted by licker on 2013-03-26 03:01:22
Well...
Everyone understands (or should understand) that elves don't need throwers.
Skaven can use one nicely though, he doesn't add much to your TV, and with SH/Accurate/Leader is a reasonable enough player to have around to get the ball to your gutters.
They skill quick if you use them as your ball chaser/passer, and at 31spp have block/accurate/leader (assuming all regular rolls) and at that point they have most of what they need to be useful.
Add tackle at 51 and you have a decent safety who can also grab up a loose ball thanks to SH.
Orcs like their thrower, even though he doesn't throw much. Humans seem to like them too.
But sure, for an elf team the thrower is a waste of a spot.
Everyone understands (or should understand) that elves don't need throwers.
Skaven can use one nicely though, he doesn't add much to your TV, and with SH/Accurate/Leader is a reasonable enough player to have around to get the ball to your gutters.
They skill quick if you use them as your ball chaser/passer, and at 31spp have block/accurate/leader (assuming all regular rolls) and at that point they have most of what they need to be useful.
Add tackle at 51 and you have a decent safety who can also grab up a loose ball thanks to SH.
Orcs like their thrower, even though he doesn't throw much. Humans seem to like them too.
But sure, for an elf team the thrower is a waste of a spot.
Posted by Jasfmpgh on 2013-03-26 03:04:30
If the thrower comes with sure hands it is often worth it. Most teams want a sure hands player to begin with.
Posted by huff on 2013-03-26 03:42:58
Pro-Elf thrower is definitly worth it, you get a skill for 10k more than a lino. You never know who is gonna end up throwing the ball for Elves is the thing. Wood Elf thrower is overpriced in comparison being 20k more but when they get leader they become a 10k cheaper Lino with the pass skill (assuming you either drop a RR or don't purchase one you otherwise would). But yes they become a piece you don't really protect with a full roster KO, but then again they are cheaper than your linos if you follow my logic.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2013-03-26 06:26:33
I tend to use throwers in more of a defensive manner anyways. Not that I am a scholar on this games. For teams like Orcs and such a Thrower is essential. For Skaven, not so much. I think the MA, and AG on a gutter makes for a better Thrower, than the Actual Thrower. Lets face it, throwers now a days are more like Old school football QBs. They hardly throw. They pick up the ball and then distribute it via hand offs. Its more like a Kick off return, than a set procedural play.
Id have to agree with Salat again with Elves. Catchers move further than Throwers. Excluding all attrition battles, then speed kills.
Id have to agree with Salat again with Elves. Catchers move further than Throwers. Excluding all attrition battles, then speed kills.
Posted by MrNomad on 2013-03-26 07:41:11
For humans it's a sound investment. Sure hands and Pass for only 20k instead of 40k. Hard to knock that kind of TR savings.
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2013-03-26 07:51:41
I would agree that many of the ag3/sure hands throwers are pretty vital. I was speaking more of the elf team throwers, and the skaven thrower to a lesser extent.
Posted by Cloggy on 2013-03-26 08:28:41
Yet you'd have to agree that the pro-elf thrower is excellent value for money.
Dark Elves don't have throwers anymore.
That leaves us with high elves and wood elves. I still think High Elves need the thrower. The general lower speed of the players means they have to pass their way out of trouble quite a lot. They also have cornerstone catchers, where woodies generally only get a few of those.
Dark Elves don't have throwers anymore.
That leaves us with high elves and wood elves. I still think High Elves need the thrower. The general lower speed of the players means they have to pass their way out of trouble quite a lot. They also have cornerstone catchers, where woodies generally only get a few of those.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-03-26 09:36:20
I like elf throwers as well. You just have to be willing to give GA skills, and not go overboard on P skills just because you can. Also, don't ever get strong arm on doubles. =D
Skaven are a bit odd, because their throwers are lower AG than the gutters. I like having my gutters available for other stuff, so I prefer to pickup with the thrower (and my AG4 block accurate kick off return leader) thrower is great for oneturning. Even if he hasn't been on the pitch during the defensive drive, he brings all the stats and skills needed to get the ball to a gutter, AND comes with a reroll for the pushes/dodges/catch etc down the line.
I think having a(n elf) thrower is nice. Stalling with elves in a slow blocking game is often not viable. For elves (especially wood elves) to play a good 8 turn drive, they need to force the opponent to spread out. If there are players in every quadrant of the game, you know your woodies are in their element. If there's two walls of players facing eachother, you know the orcs are. So: having a thrower who can reliably hang back on offense encourages the opponent to send one or two of their guys deeper that way. If he sends one, you blitz him and wait. If he sends two, you can pass and send the receiver and your other 9 guys forward to continue a stall on the opponent's half of the pitch. If he doesn't send anyone, you can do whatever the hell you like since the ball is safe. Without a good thrower (i.e. one with both pass and accurate), you can't hang quite as far back quite as safely. Trying to pull such a 'make a gap and send everyone through' move from a running play usually means you fewer elves past the opponent, who will have more players near them. This makes it much more likely that he can force you to score.
Having said this, the added cost over a lino does make me take leader as first skill these days. I usually go leader sure hands dodge accurate block.
Skaven are a bit odd, because their throwers are lower AG than the gutters. I like having my gutters available for other stuff, so I prefer to pickup with the thrower (and my AG4 block accurate kick off return leader) thrower is great for oneturning. Even if he hasn't been on the pitch during the defensive drive, he brings all the stats and skills needed to get the ball to a gutter, AND comes with a reroll for the pushes/dodges/catch etc down the line.
I think having a(n elf) thrower is nice. Stalling with elves in a slow blocking game is often not viable. For elves (especially wood elves) to play a good 8 turn drive, they need to force the opponent to spread out. If there are players in every quadrant of the game, you know your woodies are in their element. If there's two walls of players facing eachother, you know the orcs are. So: having a thrower who can reliably hang back on offense encourages the opponent to send one or two of their guys deeper that way. If he sends one, you blitz him and wait. If he sends two, you can pass and send the receiver and your other 9 guys forward to continue a stall on the opponent's half of the pitch. If he doesn't send anyone, you can do whatever the hell you like since the ball is safe. Without a good thrower (i.e. one with both pass and accurate), you can't hang quite as far back quite as safely. Trying to pull such a 'make a gap and send everyone through' move from a running play usually means you fewer elves past the opponent, who will have more players near them. This makes it much more likely that he can force you to score.
Having said this, the added cost over a lino does make me take leader as first skill these days. I usually go leader sure hands dodge accurate block.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-03-26 09:41:06
Also, higher TV elves often have a strong sacking play, and more advanced throwers can make great retrievers, like this guy:
http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&op=view&player_id=8336594
http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&op=view&player_id=8336594
Posted by Purplegoo on 2013-03-26 10:36:14
*Sniff*. In these poor quality times, it's always nice to see the odd lightbulb go on.
Posted by maysrill on 2013-03-26 12:42:36
I view the rat thrower as having 2 purposes:
1. He's a ST3 Sure Hands guy. Some match-ups are won or lost on not getting Leap/SB'ed to death.
2. A developmental player. If you get doubles (for Dodge) or +ST, you have a very solid ball-holder, perfect for when you need to control the pace. If you get +AG, he's a better handler than the gutters (assuming no SH on them).
The gutters handle the ball just fine without help. The thrower is an attempt to do better, but you should never develop one without stats/doubles.
1. He's a ST3 Sure Hands guy. Some match-ups are won or lost on not getting Leap/SB'ed to death.
2. A developmental player. If you get doubles (for Dodge) or +ST, you have a very solid ball-holder, perfect for when you need to control the pace. If you get +AG, he's a better handler than the gutters (assuming no SH on them).
The gutters handle the ball just fine without help. The thrower is an attempt to do better, but you should never develop one without stats/doubles.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-26 13:37:52
I like throwers for elves. I take two of them because they are dirt cheap. They skill easier than lineman with the built in pass reroll. I just give one of them leader/surehands etc. One of them should be more of a primary passer though. But I like to wait on accurate until superstar in case they roll a +AG because they need the room for leap.
I don't really think woodelf throwers are that special. A lino is likely to roll up AG5 at some point and become a primary passer/ball retriever. I gave leader to one of my lino's that rolled doubles. Also with MA7 lino's are easier to skill up than say elf lino's.
As for other races I haven't played them as much recently so I won't comment.
I don't really think woodelf throwers are that special. A lino is likely to roll up AG5 at some point and become a primary passer/ball retriever. I gave leader to one of my lino's that rolled doubles. Also with MA7 lino's are easier to skill up than say elf lino's.
As for other races I haven't played them as much recently so I won't comment.
Posted by Panda_ on 2013-03-26 15:41:45
To me any rookie thrower is valuable, and they still are until they becomes too experienced (31spp).
They are going to help you with leader (accurate or kick). But they are not worth a blitzer. Keep their head down, use them are handoff machines, and you'll be good.
They are going to help you with leader (accurate or kick). But they are not worth a blitzer. Keep their head down, use them are handoff machines, and you'll be good.
Posted by Wizfall on 2013-03-26 15:48:31
Leader skill make all throwers useful.
The question is more if it's interesting to invest further in P skills IMO.
The question is more if it's interesting to invest further in P skills IMO.
Posted by Scaramanga on 2013-03-26 15:58:46
And you need two throwers on underworld teams :)
Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-03-26 16:42:23
If you can't protect them... don't protect them. Most passers are cheap for what skills they come with, and they get P on normals. If they die, so what?
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2013-03-26 18:09:07
Throwers do not have to be Offensive Specialists anymore than any other player. Somebody needs to reliably pick up the ball when you are on Defense and you knock it loose.
A Thrower with Sure Hands and Nerves of Steel is ideal for that job... especially considering he will have Pass to quickly distribute the ball to one of those Catchers for the quick score (or for them to run the ball into a safe spot). Plus for all you min/maxers... The Thrower gets all of those important skills either to start with OR on a Normal Skill Roll.
As for protecting your Thrower... Why would you need to protect him? (Unless he has the ball of course... but then it is THE BALL and not the Thrower you are really protecting.) A Thrower has the same stats that would protect him a Lineman has. And with AG4 + Pass you do not need to invest in other Throwing Skills... he can get Blodge or any other skill your Linemen take and STILL be something more to the success of the team than a Lineman.
The extra dimension a Thrower can add to the team on Offense is worth the extra 20TV. You don't have to use his skills every game... but they are there when you need them to 2-turn and 1-turn but the ball was Kicked into the End Zone. To be able to safely and effectively Elf Stall a Thrower can be key. AND if you are building him right he is still more useful on Defense than a typical Lineman.
NOTE: In general I don't play Skaven and/or Woodies.
A Thrower with Sure Hands and Nerves of Steel is ideal for that job... especially considering he will have Pass to quickly distribute the ball to one of those Catchers for the quick score (or for them to run the ball into a safe spot). Plus for all you min/maxers... The Thrower gets all of those important skills either to start with OR on a Normal Skill Roll.
As for protecting your Thrower... Why would you need to protect him? (Unless he has the ball of course... but then it is THE BALL and not the Thrower you are really protecting.) A Thrower has the same stats that would protect him a Lineman has. And with AG4 + Pass you do not need to invest in other Throwing Skills... he can get Blodge or any other skill your Linemen take and STILL be something more to the success of the team than a Lineman.
The extra dimension a Thrower can add to the team on Offense is worth the extra 20TV. You don't have to use his skills every game... but they are there when you need them to 2-turn and 1-turn but the ball was Kicked into the End Zone. To be able to safely and effectively Elf Stall a Thrower can be key. AND if you are building him right he is still more useful on Defense than a typical Lineman.
NOTE: In general I don't play Skaven and/or Woodies.
Posted by PigStar-69 on 2013-03-26 18:10:51
pass reroll is worth 20 tv alone and when a thrower has sure hands to for free itscrazy not to have 1. you get 2 skills at 10 tv each and access to pass skills. even my elf teams have throwers. i like throwers even if i dont pass. the pass threat can cause oposition to think hard. imo any team that can have a thrower should take 1 even if not used as a thrower. at the end of the day 20 tv is worth it in every team :-)
Posted by ignatzami on 2013-03-26 19:02:42
The only two teams I run throwers on are Humans, Orcs and High Elves. Humans, because they need the skills desperately. High Elves, because they are a passing team, and a skilled HE thrower means you can place the ball almost anywhere at will.
Orcs, need the help getting ball to a blitzer, and into a cage. Aside from those teams, I can't imagine running a thrower.
Orcs, need the help getting ball to a blitzer, and into a cage. Aside from those teams, I can't imagine running a thrower.
Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-03-27 17:45:55
"The only two teams I run throwers on are Humans, Orcs and High Elves." :)
Posted by Rat_Salat on 2013-07-07 01:36:28
Pretty much still can't decide on this, and am using throwers again with HE and WE teams.