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Candlejack
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Candlejack (5844)
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2024-08-30 11:54:13
6 votes, rating 6
Breathe Fire and Multiple Block
I realize there has been a lot of discussion going on about the upcoming Chaos Dwarf changes, especially Breathe Fire. I did not catch the full discussion but in regards to multi block people have been voicing the opinion that it should be able to use Breathe Fire on one multi block target and sth else (regular block, stab) on the other target. This is based on the wording of "once per activation".

While I do see the logic in this argument I am currently not planning to implement Breathe Fire for mutli block. I am posting this here to keep people in the loop but also to give everyone a chance to change my decision.

I have two reasons for this.
a) Every change to multi block requires huge effort and time for implementation and testing. Of course this is not a valid reason on it's own because we want a correct version of the rules.
b) We have chainsaw and projectile vomit which also both say they can be used once per turn/activation and both say "i.e. may not be used for frenzy or multi block". This implies that all block replacing special actions with this "once per turn" wording can not be used for frenzy or multi block. I know that breathe fire does not have this additional line, so this is more like a logical deduction based on the wording of the existing skills which seems to mean "this is the logical conclusion and goes without saying".

This combination of "probably not allowed" and "lots of effort" plus that this is very niche brought me to my decision.
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Comments
Posted by MattDakka on 2024-08-30 11:59:45
Is it possible to ask GW designers about that?
Having an official FAQ reply would solve the ambiguity.
Posted by Nelphine on 2024-08-30 12:30:33
I'm personally in favour of not implementing it. Multiple block is almost always a trap skill.

So fir me it's 3 points:
Probably not allowed
Lots of effort
Very rare use cases
Posted by MattDakka on 2024-08-30 12:46:00
It doesn't need to be implemented, but it would be nice to know it for people playing TT games. There you don't need to implement it on a client, you just need to know whether the 2 skills have synergy.
Posted by Garion on 2024-08-30 15:06:23
@Matt, The decision made here is the correct one, as it is unlikely to work together.

However it is possible this could change after an FAQ. best to wait for that FAQ rather than waste effort that could be used on other more important stuff :)
Posted by JamesLangley on 2024-08-30 15:13:04
I agree that it probably should not be allowed with Multi Block.

Are you planning to allow it to be used with Frenzy? Currently, FUMBBL allows Vomit to be used with Frenzy despite the weird disclaimer in the skill description (which I think is generally just a poorly written rule.) I don't really see why Breathe Fire would not be usable on Frenzy (since it ends your activation when you do it once anyway.)

Hopefully we can get some more clarification in the FAQ/release.
Posted by MattDakka on 2024-08-30 15:46:23
I didn't say it wasn't the correct decision, but I would like to know for sure whether there is the synergy or not.
Probably is not surely. I agree that probably there is no synergy, but if you play a TT game some people could argue about it.
Rules must have no ambiguity, so a FAQ is required. :)
Posted by Candlejack on 2024-08-30 15:53:29
Atm the plan is to have breathe fire available for the frenzy block (so the second one if the first was just a push) same as vomit and chaninsaw currently are.

The reason here is that it is also a bit unclear what was meant. Our interpretation is that you can not use one of these skills with frenzy to get two attempts.

I have to agree that this is also not water prood as e.g. stab does not have that limitation in it's description and we do not allow it to double stab with frenzy.

A general clarification on how all these skills are intended to work together would be very good but not sure we will get one.
Posted by JackassRampant on 2024-08-30 17:53:36
TBF, Frenzy only triggers the second block on a push, and Stab can't push (nor can Breathe Fire), so if you use Stab for the first block on a Frenzy player, there's no way to meet the conditions for a second block.
Posted by DrClaes on 2024-08-30 18:36:25
My mind immediately went to Multiple block when I read about the Fire trait, analogous to the dark elf (suboptimal but funny) wet dream of taking multiple block on assassins and going to town against stunties.

But I agree with the reasoning above regarding why it will not be implemented. Seems perfectly reasonable. As many have said, a clarification from GW would be appreciated but we shouldn't count on it.
Posted by sebco on 2024-08-30 20:07:59
I do agree with the analysis in your b) paragraph. Breath Fire description is close to Chainsaw and Projectile vomit descriptions. It is not added in parentheses that it is prohibited to use it with Multiple block but, otherwise, it is the same logic.

Then, Stab works differently. It is not stated in Stab description that it can be used only once per turn / activation. And GW added a question in FAQ to confirm it could be used with Multiple block.

So, yes, the sentence in parenthese is missing to be sure at 100% that it is forbidden to use Breath Fire with Multiple block. But the question in FAQ is also missing to state that it is authorized to use Breath Fire with Multiple block. :D