Posted by koadah on 2020-07-30 20:27:20

I have never timed anyone out. I maybe never will.

But your friend was given a warning with 30 seconds still to play. I really don't see what you have to complain about.

Posted by fidius on 2020-07-30 20:31:00

30 seconds is not a warning, it's a declaration of imminent dickishness.

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-07-30 20:36:15

Koadah, you serious? In 30 secs you just have time to write "what? I thought NAF tournaments didn't have a timeout", or "Sorry, took a bit more time to think this critical turn".

Warning means "Hey dude, this is the first turn you hit the 4 mins mark. Next time, I'll timeout. You're warned". Telling your opponent at 3.34 is not a warning, it's an insult.

Posted by Jeffro on 2020-07-30 20:40:04

Happened *TO* me a while back and I was pretty upset at the time, as I was against a coach that was MUCH better than I was and I knew I had him... it just took me a while to arrange the successive rolls and things that needed to happen.

He *needed* to time me out in order to win. I felt that was more of a judgement on him and I look back on it as a point of pride.

I see what you're saying - completely understand. But you control the things in life that you can - not the things you can't. Other people being dickheads is beyond my control. I *can* choose to bolster myself and my confidence or can choose to let it bring me down.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2020-07-30 20:43:03

Putting aside arguments about timing out - it used to be the case in Online NAF that we said it wasn’t a thing (to recreate the real life environment, so we didn’t surprise and alienate TT types that jumped over to join us), we still do say that on NAF Live. So if that wasn’t in the bumf this time, I can see why your friend was upset / shocked, as previously it has been.

Best to PM Strider and seek guidance, rather than kick off a 100 post blog thread with no winners. :)

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-07-30 20:46:26

He PM'd to Strider, who said that it wasnt against the rules. So the "legal" aspect of the game is over, and to be honest I think my friend got over it as well. My blog post was kind of a PSA.

Something along the lines "Please don't do it. When you are on the receiving end if feels SO unfair and you know it. Do you really feel pride after that? Fumbbl is one of the nices places online for the vast majority of us. Let's not turn it into a counterstrike community."

Posted by Mingoose on 2020-07-30 20:46:57

The TO warning during the turn is just the worst. If you want to sincerely warn someone of that, do it the turn before you are going to do it, or ideally before kickoff. I had an opponent arbitrarily declare in the middle of one of my turns that he would TO me because he had to get the match over with, and it destroyed my ability to play. Of course I hadn't even been close to the whistle on any turn and my opponent had run over twice. But as a tactic of psychological warfare, the warning is devastating.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2020-07-30 20:49:50

Re: that not being a thing in Online NAF anymore - OK, understood. I'm sure Strider has his reasons!

Posted by Purplegoo on 2020-07-30 20:57:42

(Probably how difficult to enforce it is after the event, I imagine!)

Posted by erased000047 on 2020-07-30 21:26:12

I never heard of someone complaining about a chess clock and calling game if the flag drops. It is part of the online game. It's part of being a coach , learning to manage resources just like players, time is a resource and IMO, you are being rude to your opponent to put him in the position of having to call time...

leagues have rules against time outs. tournaments don't because its part of the game complexity.

your friend should learn to plan ahead while the opponent is taking their turn.

ok. my opp. bye bye

-swamp

Posted by Strider84 on 2020-07-30 21:37:25

Yeah I don't want to be a judge on that one. the Site has rules. The player btw asked by specifically before the match whether time outs are allowed or not and I allowed but said to give a warning which he did. I also said to make sure that the player is familiar with the client (1500 games deep on fumbbl nobody should have an issue finishing a turn in 4 minutes due to not finding the right buttons)

while I don't believe the 4 min turn time is a competitive aspect and believe if the opponent finds the right moves in 5 minutes he is still as good, there are a significant amount of players who do think the game is to find the moves in 4 minutes as the rules say. Therefore I leave that option to these players.

Personally I totally agree with JanMattis and think it is a Dick move, I only time out people in 1 min tournaments where time really matters. But my personal opinion is not automatically the rule, I believe the site rules are very profound and solid and therefore don't need any additional ruling.

I've been timed out myself and been angry about it, but mostly I've just been angry at myself for not looking at the timer, and that's exactly what happened here I guess.
And yeah I'm also a fan of fast players because I'm addicted to blood bowl and need to play loooots of games ;-)

Posted by Shraaaag on 2020-07-30 22:19:03

Time management is part of any competitive game (ie. tournament game). When you play other board/card games competively you don't even get the option not to time out, you just are.

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-07-30 22:48:02

These comments about time management and timeouts being part of the game fail to see the point.
The opponent DID warn my friend. So it's one of two things:

Either:
a) timeouts are part of the game just as blocks and fouls, and no warning is needed (I don't think any of you announces fouls)
or
b) the opponent acknowledges that some sort of warning is needed on fummbl as part of the social habit built around here

Now, I don't care if you believe the habit is good or bad, justified or not, the point is that giving the warning in itself is a clear sign that B is the case and it's a demonstration that *some* sort of timeout etiquette is supposed to exist.

Doing it with 30 seconds left in the same turn just when (oh, what a coincidence) you're about to lose the ball, it's dickish. It's followin "the letter of the etiquette", which is SO MUCH worse than "following the letter of the rule".

If you follow the letter of the rule, at least you can claim ignorance of the etiquette. Following the letter of the etiquette while still pursuing your own way to slip past it for your own ends is... unjustifiable.

Posted by Mingoose on 2020-07-30 23:04:46

It is worse than just sneaking in a warning to preserve some plausible deniability on etiquette. A warning like that is basically a weapon. It demands attention and then you are looking at the clock and thinking about what you have to fit in... how many more moves would your friend had made had the opponent not announced the TO possibility?

Posted by Joost on 2020-07-30 23:13:31

Always assume you’ll be timed out. But I value opponents that don’t. Given the fact that it is common at fumbbl (at least in my experience) not to time out, I think the decent thing to do is to warn an opponent before his / her turn starts that from now on you will time out. Warning with 30 seconds left and then pouncing on the button in a critical turn imho is lame. Not illegal but lame.

Posted by spinball on 2020-07-30 23:26:00

I will time people out, normally after giving the player his or her first turn over 4 minutes without doing so. After their turn is over I will tell them just so you know, next time I will time you out. However I do have exceptions to doing so

1. New players with less than 50 games on fumbbl. Turn length in that case can be linked to unfamiliarity.
2. The player lets me know that they are AFK for some reason, bathroom, kids letting the dog out ect.
3. The site has been less than reliable.

I have no issue being timed out nor timing out others, I have played in Table Top leagues with timers because games would take way too long without them. I have played competitive chess, and I have no issue with a chess clock. I have played against many people in many different games that if time isn't an object the game grinds to a halt when someone is losing, and the game becomes an agony.

That being said it is part of the site rules, and if those rules are not to your liking you are free to complain about them, and lobby for them to change. However as long as they are the rules of the site, if you are playing on the site you are subject to them the same as your opponent.

Posted by Araznaroth on 2020-07-30 23:30:12

Not me, the guy was a dick! IMHO OFC :D

Posted by koadah on 2020-07-30 23:59:17

@Jan: Yes, I'm serious. You should be trying to get done inside 4:00 anyway. If you have not been called away for some reason, you should be almost done anyway. A warning with 30 seconds to go should be enough warning to get on with it. If you don't make it, you don't make it.

Many leagues & tournaments run on Fumbbl. It is up to the coaches to find out the rules of the event that they are playing in.

IMO the client should have the option of sounding a warning at 3:30.

As I said, I've never timed anyonne out. That is most likely the way that it will stay as long as people don't take the Mick.

Posted by Cloggy on 2020-07-31 00:22:27

The 4 minute rule is originally written for table top, where you have to do all sorts of things thsat are automated in the client we use (move mini's, roll dice and such). In all fairness, anything even approaching THREE minutes should be considered as rude waste of your opponent's time and anyone should be able to finish almost every turn in about 150 seconds.

There are actually coaches out there who (seem to) use slow play as a way of breaking the conecentration of their opponents. Even if it's unintentional, that's how it works on me.

That aside, I do think a fair warning is good sportsmanship. Personally I warn the first time the 4:00 is breached and time out the second, but that's not something you can force another coach to do.

Posted by spinball on 2020-07-31 00:55:24

+1 Cloggy

Posted by The_Murker on 2020-07-31 03:02:54

My opinion is about as strong as it gets on this subject. It is a dick move.

Two or 3 turns every game are usually super interesting for each coach, and fun to puzzle out. If you think your win/loss record is more important than allowing your fellow coach a few extra seconds twice per game to enjoy an interesting turn, I think you are being a jerk. Enjoy your win/loss record, jerk.

Posted by Arktoris on 2020-07-31 07:04:48

When you play a tournament game, it is expected you know the rules. No one should have to hold your hand and explain them to you. "You know, if you roll a skull, your turn is over. You know, if you fumble that long bomb, your turn is over. You know, if you exceed 4 min, your turn is over."

That being said, many conceited people hate the 4 min rule (and illegal procedure) because you can't blame the dice for what happened...only yourself. Something their ego can't handle.

However, I think NAF waves the time limit (which is why I ignore them, as they aren't playing real bloodbowl), therefore in this situation, I'd side with the "victim".


to The_Murker,

Bloodbowl is 50% psychological. Mental fortitude is every bit important in BB as knowing dice statistics and risk assessment. Suffering combat hesitation is just as bad as poor strategy.

This is true in real life as well. You can be awesome with a rifle hitting a bulls-eye from 400 meters, but when the bullets start flying around, you cry for your mom instead of focus, you will never be a good soldier.

I recommend letting BB toughen you rather than catering to snowflake syndrome, as that is a good positive trait to have in life both at home and work.

Probably one of the few benefits of being a bloodbowl coach.

Posted by The_Murker on 2020-07-31 07:29:32

*?* Bullets.. combat.. serious stuff.
Blood Bowl.. enjoyment.. a complex and interesting turn.. Sorry, Ark, I can't follow you down your tough guy road. To me that just sounds like you want an excuse to keep your actions simple and quick, and wish others would do the same every turn, without exception. If someone else spending time with you in a game is enjoying an interesting turn he should 'toughen up?' I'd point out that patience and courtesy towards the other coach are important, if I didn't know for certain that going 4mins and 30 seconds twice in an hour is the pinnacle of discourtesy for some coaches.

Posted by stowelly on 2020-07-31 08:55:04

Winning a game because you timed someone out at a critical moment cant feel good, this isnt a game where winning at all costs is a factor

Posted by Verminardo on 2020-07-31 09:02:39

I value fair play and making the game a mutually enjoyable activity regardless of who wins in the end. So I do not time out if the game is interesting and fun and I'm chatting and enjoying myself. And I never time out the first time my opponent goes over the time limit. If my opponent is generally slow and silent, I might give fair warning after the second time he goes over the limit, and time out the third time. Once against Endzone I announced in one very crucial turn that I would use time out that turn just to spice things up, but I did that at the very beginning of the turn. ;-) (He finished the turn in time and beat me, of course.)

Some people have different approach, they don't care about fair play or their opponent's enjoyment of the game, they only care about winning. Which is a shame in my view. Now we can debate whether that's immoral, a dick move, there's a special hell reserved for those people (along with people who talk in the theatre), and so on, but there is really very little point in that. Practice your Blood Bowl Zen!

Posted by stowelly on 2020-07-31 09:22:41

also "you will never be a good soldier."

hillarious :D

just what we need, more people who can blindly follow orders!

Posted by Lasgalen on 2020-07-31 10:02:16

I know a guy who was timed out once.
He was going to grab a beer and he got timed out.
He still has PTSD.
Damn bloodbowl war, it will never ends in this grim future.

Posted by flashman1234 on 2020-07-31 10:12:59

I don't remember what day it is, but I do remember the people who have timed me out.

Posted by mekutata on 2020-07-31 10:26:40

I expected a limerick when clicking this blog.

Posted by badger89 on 2020-07-31 10:59:41

I have timed-out people but this is after they finish the turn I say "please do not go over 4 mins again as I will time you out." and many people thank you for warning them.

Posted by flashman1234 on 2020-07-31 11:02:24

BB2 has that sound - stomping or clock ticking down? - shortly before the 4 minutes (they also auto timeout, so). A tick tick tick sound at 3:30 might be worth it.

Posted by Gritter on 2020-07-31 11:11:46

If this was the first and only warning, it is quite simply unsportsmanlike behaviour and if it occurred in TT somehow... well it wouldn't... at least not without social consequences.

If your opponent is slow in previous turns then give them a warning for the following turn and enforce the timeout if it goes over this is reasonable behaviour to your fellow human...

What is described here is taking 'winning' to repugnant levels.

Posted by sann0638 on 2020-07-31 11:35:51

I fell asleep during a my opponent's turn once. That was on tabletop though.

Posted by Spence on 2020-07-31 12:07:15

I think a wise man once said "You have 240 warnings every turn!"

Posted by Taring4 on 2020-07-31 12:56:51

So i suposse im a proud dick

Posted by MattDakka on 2020-07-31 13:11:09

Time out should be always automatic in competitive divisions/NAF tournaments/Majors, that would save lot of misunderstandings and would even the level of the competition (because the time limit would be the same for everybody, and not discretional according to different coaches' preferences).
If you want to play a laid back, relaxed game, play with friends in League division (as an aside, I got timed out in a league game after I didn't time out my opponent some turns before, so I learned to trust no one). In a tournament, you are supposed to know all the rules, including time limit. Blame your own slowness, not your opponent timing you out. If he doesn't time you out, he just made you a gift, but he's not compelled not to time out by some moral obligation.

About warnings: I warned a very slow and very good coach during a game (I will not name him for obvious reasons) but after several warnings he kept on playing slow (he does that because, I think, he wants to play every turn as well as he can, not because unable to play fast). Without enforcing a time out I would have literally spent the night playing vs him taking more than 4 minutes every turn for no real reason (the game was Wood Elves vs Chaos, not Vampires, which are a kind of race requiring more thinking time than usual).
Time is a resource of the game, just like dice. You don't blame your opponent if he doesn't pick "skull" on a 2d "skull" "pow" against your player.

Posted by koadah on 2020-07-31 14:31:14

"Time out should be always automatic in competitive divisions/NAF tournaments/Majors"

You have probably been told a hundred times why that is not going to happen.

Posted by MattDakka on 2020-07-31 15:35:01

I know it's not going to happen, and I used "should" because it's not going to happen.
My point was that, without automatic time out, some people expect they will not be timed out, and get deluded and caught flat-footed when they are timed out.
With automatic time out this would not happen because everybody would expect it.
Now, before you state once again an obvious thing, I know that automatic time out will never be implemented on FUMBBL and the purpose of my post was not asking for implementing it.
I accepted it as one of the few flaws of FUMBBL, like the existence of Ranked division.

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-07-31 16:21:36

Fumbbl is not Bloodbowl though.
In NAF tournaments you have a set time for the whole game, not a turn-based timeout.

Are you arguing that NAF tournaments are not where real bloodbowl is played?

Posted by Malmir on 2020-07-31 17:17:41

What’s wrong with ranked Mattdakka? Haha just kidding couldn’t resist. I have lost games in majors I could have won by timing out. I have also won great games in majors that would have been rubbish games had I timed out. I want to win what I consider properly, not by timing out and I would like to think others do too. My general experience supports this. If you feel differently, why not just announce at the start of the game that you will time out then everyone knows where they stand. I would have no problem with this. It’s the time out without warning and 30 seconds might as well be no warning that appears underhanded just because the majority don’t so it can feel unexpected.

Posted by koadah on 2020-07-31 17:27:43

@Matt: It is not going to happen because it shouldn't happen.

If you want that, you can play Cyanide. Or add it as an option for the League division and create your own league. But you keep saying that no one wants to join your leagues.

It seems that relatively few people actually time anyone out. Even fewer time anyone out without a warning. And very few people actually come onto the forums/blogs to complain about it.

So, why on earth "should" you change it for everyone when only a tiny number of people have a problem?

Posted by koadah on 2020-07-31 17:45:00

@Malmir & Co: My opinion is that if you really intended to finish your turn in 4:00, then the warning at 3:30 should be sufficient.

If you intended to go over the 4:00 or just weren't bothered, then you are, in a way, cheating. You are gaining an unfair advantage. Are you going to play to 4:15? 4:30? 5:00? 6:00?

The rule is 4m. If the opponent grants more, you can be grateful. If they don't... C'est la vie.

Different leagues & tournaments have different cultures. The bigger the league, the more different opinions you will have within it.

Posted by stej on 2020-07-31 18:25:02

I would suggest that the site automate the timeout rule for official tournaments that wish to use it as opposed to leave it to player discretion.

I would also be an advocate of having a reserve time bank that gets used if you go over. If you use the reserve up then you time out and future turns timeout as usual.

This removes the emotion from it happening at least

Posted by ph0enyx13 on 2020-07-31 18:33:25

Play faster. Someone who takes 4 plus mins a turn is a bigger jerk than someone who hits the time out button

Posted by MattDakka on 2020-07-31 18:57:28

@Malmir: :P Don't want to hijack the thread, don't tempt me!!!
@koadah: Cyanide game has Piling On CRP-style, that's a flaw bigger than non-automatic time out.

About enforcing automatic time out for tournament games, what about an option at start of the game, so, if both coaches mutually agree to play with automatic time out, then time out is automatic, if just one of them doesn't agree, time out is optional.
Would not solve the issue but at least would inform the opponent that time out is automatic/optional.

Posted by Rbthma on 2020-07-31 19:05:03

Generally I don't time-out, as some have mentioned if the match is interesting there's certainly wiggle room for turns to go over 4 minutes on complex ones. I'd be in favor of something like a time bank overall as the intention of timing turns surely is to make sure the match takes a reasonable amount of time overall, no?

Under turnovers in CRP rules, timer reaching 4 minutes is listed as a turnover btw. not sure if this has changed recently.

Posted by Balle2000 on 2020-07-31 19:34:14

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/687/142.jpg

Posted by Dominik on 2020-07-31 21:50:44

Ive been given once a warning during my turn and become timed out. I was surprised because for obvious reasons I was not reading the chat during my turn since I know Im gonna need every second of the 4 minutes.

So if you want to be nice but do not want to wait longer than 4 minutes, give the warning in your turn, not the opponents turn.

Posted by Dalfort on 2020-07-31 23:49:25

I think I am considered a nice guy, I will time you out in a Tournament. I usually warn you that I will do this after you go over the second time or you hit 5 minutes because that is taking the piss. Comparisons to TT events where an overall time period is used is quite frankly unfair in itself. Imagine the time split if one coaches constantly takes 6 minutes turns but his opponent takes 2-3 minute turns and nothing is ever noticed because the 1.5-2 hour window should be plenty to get the game finished and as pointed out above TT you have to physically move everything, set-up is far more complicated and the calculations all have to be worked out applying the rules that the client does in milliseconds.

Posted by koadah on 2020-08-01 00:11:30

All information currently available does tend to suggest that there is indeed a very high probability that Dalfort is a nice guy. Probably a very nice guy.

Posted by MattDakka on 2020-08-01 01:01:57

I guess that real life tournaments use a 1.5-2 hour window just because it's simpler and more practical than keeping track of 4 minutes every turn (that would require a referee or a sort of chess clock for each table).
For sure 4 minutes per turn is very different from a single big time window you can use with more flexibility, but 4 minutes is what the official rule say and it's supposed to be used with physical dice, miniatures and pitch.
FUMBBL client helps a lot to speed up the turns, so, if you play real life NAF tournaments, you should have no issues with 4 minutes per turn on the client.

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-08-01 08:30:49

I could be mistaken, but if I remember correctly in the Lucca world cup in 2015 there was a chess clock system but no 4 minutes turn limit. Every player had half the total time at his disposal, and used the chess clock to consume his own time. That way, if he was constantly using 2 minutes per turn, he could use 5 in a particularly critical or difficult one without pissing anyone off.

It worked wonders and it would probably be the fairest compromise of all.

Oh, and btw @MattDakka: in this day and age, there's like a hundred chess clock apps for phones, so all you need is a single phone near the table where both coaches click at the end of their turn. No big deal.

Posted by JanMattys on 2020-08-01 08:38:15

Also, as I stated: I KNOW that timeouting people is legal and in your right.
But the fact remains that

1- the vast majority of people seem to consider "warning your opponent that you will enforce the rule" the socially acceptable thing to do.

and

2- Many (if not all) NAF tournaments before this one clearly stated a "no timeout rule".

Given these two facts (which I consider non-debatable, honestly, what happenend is that my friend's opponent did not address the situation the proper way from a social and gaming perspective. It was a LEGAL thing to do, but that is not mutually exclusive with being a dick about it. How you do things is important.

So far in this (long) blog comments section the only point of view I can relate to is the one by Koadah, who thinks that warning someone at the 3.34 minute mark is enough warning. I don't agree, but I understand. Everyone elso seems to debate about the legal aspects, or the fact that you should always assume people will time you out. Which is the smart thing to do, but in my experience is NOT the general consensus on Fumbbl. Many of you would be pissed if, out of the blue, your opponent would timeout you first strike without a word, tournament or not.

Posted by mekutata on 2020-08-01 10:11:52

Well it's a world run by dicks, and point 1 just means there is a majority of friendly pussies around here, problem are the few [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2GwrR-4Q9E]assholes[/url]

Posted by MattDakka on 2020-08-01 13:29:52

The fact is that moral behaviour may vary according to different people's moral values and standards.
What is a dick move for somebody could not be for somebody else.
This is why games have a ruleset stating what is legal or not, without any moral implication.
If it's legal, you can do it. The ethical judgement may vary.
Somebody could say that it's not fair to take more than 4 minutes for a turn because if you can think longer you have an advantage over your opponent not taking more than 4 minutes per turn. Somebody could say that he doesn't want to spend more than 1 hour playing a Blood Bowl game because his focus decreases.
I can understand that your friend got pissed off by the unexpected time out, and at first I was too, when it happened to me here on FUMBBL, but after the emotional frustration was over, I realized that it's part of the game, raises the level of the competition and I don't get upset anymore if somebody times out me, but I blame myself for being slow.

Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2020-08-01 18:15:44

I replied to the now-gone thread, but will place my reply here (as far as I can remember it) as it's relevant I guess.

In general, I would say zero warning is necessary for a TO in R/B/FUMBBL Tournaments (non-NAF), simply because the rules of the game state under "turnovers": after 4 minutes a turnover occurs. The timeout option on FUMBBL is simply to allow people to go afk mid-turn or attend to unknowns, not to grant extra time. I generally close the client myself (after telling my opponent) if i need to attend to something for an unknown duration, this takes any responsibility/doubt from their end of things. I also generally tell people pre-game if they're known to be slow that I "play to 4min". I will issue that warning if early turns are slow too, but I genuinely don't feel I should have to - knowledge of the rules should decree that you should *expect* to be timed out on 4min if playing.

The murky area is that this was a NAF tournament. NAF traditionally does not apply 4min, but an overall time limit for the game to be completed in. And usually on FUMBBL NAF-online this atmosphere is one that is replicated. So I don't timeout in NAF online (even though I genuinely would like to sometimes!).

I actually think the consensus on FUMBBL is somewhat split now - many older coaches have come through LRB4 where FUMBBL did not have timeouts properly implemented, and are used to a rather languid application of the rule. Many coaches come from TT, where they simply don't really expect to see it applied to the letter online too unless consistently slow play is disturbing the game. But many, many newer coaches come from either BB2 (where 2min and auto-timeout is standard on cladder), or do not have either LRB4/TT background and are bemused as to why someone would expect any extra time at all for a complex turn in a puzzle game.

I don't mind the idea of chess clocks or 2min turns etc with an additional timebank, but to my mind they do diverge somewhat from the tenets of the game a bit - the standard flat limit is a part of the overlying strategy.

I think the key bit of this blog, and the thread Malmir posted, is that while one should "expect to be timed out", there's enough areas and people where the rule is not applied (leagues, NAF etc) that simply saying pre-match what your intentions are cause no one any harm. But that said, I don't think applying the rules of a game make you a dick. Doing it with glee might.

Posted by koadah on 2020-08-01 18:30:39

If you don't have a rule against something, people are gonna do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY

Posted by fidius on 2020-08-02 05:41:12

The rules of this game are inherently dickish. The 4m turnover rule is one example. Illegal Procedure is another. Rewards for injuries is another. Stalling/clock management is another. Racial imbalance is another. Dick-moves abound in this game. And the game attracts dicks as a result. Dicks know they are expected to exploit these things -- so they can be themselves and still play within the rules! Beautiful!

Don't get me wrong, in competitions exploit the rules as given, fine. But games for fun in R, B, L, SL... Personally I like to pretend I'm playing against another human being. In other words I assume you're not a dick (until you prove otherwise).

Posted by Arktoris on 2020-08-02 08:15:06

no problem Murker. I look forward to exploiting your Achilles heel in a future table top game. Thanks for the strategic in-road to the win.

Posted by Arktoris on 2020-08-02 09:00:08

@stowelly

actually, those are some of the sweetest wins. For you truly beat your opponent instead of simply rolling better dice.