18 coaches online • Server time: 08:13
* * * Did you know? The best passer is Cherrystone Hotpack with 656 completions.
Recent Forum Topics  BB with seasons, mat... | New Metagame: Rotter... | NCBA 7s S4 |
2015-10-05 02:12:53
6 votes, rating 3.2
6 votes, rating 3.2
Getting back to the game + Lizardmen theorycrafting
Well,
I am currently getting back into the game.
I did try some not 100% usual things:
1: Fouling with Skinks:
In General, Sneaky Git Skinks are not very efficient. 80K for a Fouler is quite a bit in TV terms. However, they do have some uses:
1: Due to Lizardmen mobility, you can do gangfouls without being "that" out of position.
2: You very clearly signal that you will foul anything that is worthwhile and prone. This can cut down on Clawpombers, not so much because you actually foul them out, but because the thought of getting fouled in retribution does reduce the usage of piling on.
3: One should however note that Sneaky Git is not for gangfouls. It is for completely opportunistic fouls with limited numbers of assists, just because you can.
Here is a table for the outcomes (unless my Mathbowl is weak)
AV KO Cas Remove target from pitch Sent of no SG Sent of with SG
10 2% 1.4% 3.4% 17.6% 4%
9 4% 2.8% 7% 18.5% 7.5%
8 7% 4.6% 11.6% 20.4% 9.3%
7 10% 7% 17% 23% 14%
6 15% 10% 25% 25% 16.7%
5 18% 12% 30% 27% 21%
4 21% 14% 35% 29% 23%
3 23% 15% 38% 30% 27%
Or something like that.
So, basically, the "break even point" were sending off the opponent becomes a bit more likely then getting send off (of course, both can and at higher AV values will happen at the same time) with sneaky git is at AV8, without sneaky git it is AV6. This is somewhat simplistic because the chances of getting sent off are not independent of the chances of scoring a from pitch removal, especially at higher AVs, removal will very often be effectively a double removal.
One should also factor in the opportunity cost of moving the Skink (and assisters) to the foul because that can leave you out of position,
When it comes to such "reduce the opponent to AV8 and randomly foul" fouling, Lizards have both a pro (mobility) and multiple cons (no cheap players, substitute Skinks considerably increase TV).
The bottom line: It depends on the coach and the setup. If you are going for a 13ish players team, and play at higher TV-rankings, one SG can make sense. Frankly, Skinks are decent players without any skills, and wether some random Skink has Sidestep or Sneaky Git does not make that much of a difference, and sneaky git does offer an option of commiting highly opportunistic fouls. Just remember that successfull opportunistic fouls will often also send of your guy, and accept and plan for it.
One does imho not want a Sneaky Git Skink to ever get a second skill (just increases his cost and decreases the range of people whom he should, mathematically speaking, foul), and since getting the first skill on a Skink is really easy, I would recomend to retire any SG Skink who gets the second skill.
I am currently getting back into the game.
I did try some not 100% usual things:
1: Fouling with Skinks:
In General, Sneaky Git Skinks are not very efficient. 80K for a Fouler is quite a bit in TV terms. However, they do have some uses:
1: Due to Lizardmen mobility, you can do gangfouls without being "that" out of position.
2: You very clearly signal that you will foul anything that is worthwhile and prone. This can cut down on Clawpombers, not so much because you actually foul them out, but because the thought of getting fouled in retribution does reduce the usage of piling on.
3: One should however note that Sneaky Git is not for gangfouls. It is for completely opportunistic fouls with limited numbers of assists, just because you can.
Here is a table for the outcomes (unless my Mathbowl is weak)
AV KO Cas Remove target from pitch Sent of no SG Sent of with SG
10 2% 1.4% 3.4% 17.6% 4%
9 4% 2.8% 7% 18.5% 7.5%
8 7% 4.6% 11.6% 20.4% 9.3%
7 10% 7% 17% 23% 14%
6 15% 10% 25% 25% 16.7%
5 18% 12% 30% 27% 21%
4 21% 14% 35% 29% 23%
3 23% 15% 38% 30% 27%
Or something like that.
So, basically, the "break even point" were sending off the opponent becomes a bit more likely then getting send off (of course, both can and at higher AV values will happen at the same time) with sneaky git is at AV8, without sneaky git it is AV6. This is somewhat simplistic because the chances of getting sent off are not independent of the chances of scoring a from pitch removal, especially at higher AVs, removal will very often be effectively a double removal.
One should also factor in the opportunity cost of moving the Skink (and assisters) to the foul because that can leave you out of position,
When it comes to such "reduce the opponent to AV8 and randomly foul" fouling, Lizards have both a pro (mobility) and multiple cons (no cheap players, substitute Skinks considerably increase TV).
The bottom line: It depends on the coach and the setup. If you are going for a 13ish players team, and play at higher TV-rankings, one SG can make sense. Frankly, Skinks are decent players without any skills, and wether some random Skink has Sidestep or Sneaky Git does not make that much of a difference, and sneaky git does offer an option of commiting highly opportunistic fouls. Just remember that successfull opportunistic fouls will often also send of your guy, and accept and plan for it.
One does imho not want a Sneaky Git Skink to ever get a second skill (just increases his cost and decreases the range of people whom he should, mathematically speaking, foul), and since getting the first skill on a Skink is really easy, I would recomend to retire any SG Skink who gets the second skill.
Comments
Posted by tussock on 2015-10-05 02:52:59
On doubles, pick up Sneaky Git + Dirty Player, against the right AV targets you should routinely kick out 1-2 opponent players per match, and that can mean a massive swing in power if you get their killers.
They live a long time too, getting sent off so early all the time.
They live a long time too, getting sent off so early all the time.
Posted by fidius on 2015-10-05 03:55:59
Worth trying. I'd probably wait for the first DP before skilling to SG (and you'll want Sure Hands before DP...), but you're right, those Ag skills are mostly bloat on Skinks so it doesn't matter much either way.
Posted by thoralf on 2015-10-05 05:57:32
Against ClawPOMB teams, which players do you place on the LOS while kicking?
Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2015-10-05 06:29:54
Isn't that what loner/rookie skinks are for?
Posted by Fortis on 2015-10-05 07:12:37
I wouldn't ever waste a skink double on DP. Block and Wrestle are so much more important to building a useful skink.
Taking Catch isn't terrible on the skinks, Sidestep is a good skill to prevent skink deaths and the last one that is useful: DT is an absolute winner.
Lizards have a huge issue with Leap Strip pieces and therefore Elves in general. Having mass DT (and they are one of the few teams where you can put DT on 4ish players with a straight face) makes the elf matchup so much stronger.
Sneaky Git is about as bad as a skill gets, I wouldn't bother experimenting with it, it's awful.
Foul with your skinks if you've got a killer on the ground, but don't bother fouling for value like you would with undead and goblins.
You can stick low level Saurus or Krox on the line against CPOMB teams. You'll have more strength and more Guard most of the time so you can minimise blocks that way.
Taking Catch isn't terrible on the skinks, Sidestep is a good skill to prevent skink deaths and the last one that is useful: DT is an absolute winner.
Lizards have a huge issue with Leap Strip pieces and therefore Elves in general. Having mass DT (and they are one of the few teams where you can put DT on 4ish players with a straight face) makes the elf matchup so much stronger.
Sneaky Git is about as bad as a skill gets, I wouldn't bother experimenting with it, it's awful.
Foul with your skinks if you've got a killer on the ground, but don't bother fouling for value like you would with undead and goblins.
You can stick low level Saurus or Krox on the line against CPOMB teams. You'll have more strength and more Guard most of the time so you can minimise blocks that way.
Posted by Garion on 2015-10-05 08:21:03
Sorry but sneaky git is a pretty terrible skill, and a waste of tv imo. I really wouldn't recommend it.
Posted by MDeLarge on 2015-10-05 11:56:02
Why am I reading Sneaky Git and GangFoul in the same sentence? It seems stupid for me, if you foul with free Av roll SG just doesn't work, so it is a obvious TV bloat
Posted by Macabeo on 2015-10-05 12:25:16
Well, contrary to the popular opinion. I like your idea. It baffles me that people care that much about 20k spent on skills that you only take once or twice like Sneaky Git and Hail Mary Pass at high TV. I mean, when there are players worth 200k of TV laying down on the ground, paying 20k for the ability to take potshots at them with little to no repercussion sounds like a good idea to me.
Also, I know nothing about lizzies, but why do people refuse to have reserves/foul with them? Sure, 60k is not the cheapest lineman, but again at high TV paying some extra TV to have a bench and the possibility of fouling should be bearable.
Compare a 14 players human team against a 14 players lizardmen team. Your bench is 30k more expensive, does it matter all that much? I know we are living in the age of TV minmaxing and every little drop of TV counts, but in leagues and majors?
Also, I know nothing about lizzies, but why do people refuse to have reserves/foul with them? Sure, 60k is not the cheapest lineman, but again at high TV paying some extra TV to have a bench and the possibility of fouling should be bearable.
Compare a 14 players human team against a 14 players lizardmen team. Your bench is 30k more expensive, does it matter all that much? I know we are living in the age of TV minmaxing and every little drop of TV counts, but in leagues and majors?
Posted by Mightypeon on 2015-10-05 16:15:10
Rookie Skinks are already usefull, I loved my basic Sidestep DT Skinks in LRB 4, but they do cost 10 TV in 5 which is kind of steep.
The argument against large benches with Lizards is more that it dilutes MVPs away from the players you want to develop.
The argument against large benches with Lizards is more that it dilutes MVPs away from the players you want to develop.
Posted by Macabeo on 2015-10-05 19:17:02
I see, good point.
Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-10-06 04:28:41
I like Larger Rosters with Lizardmen (14.) I foul a fair bit with them and I don't like to feel like I'm saving them or protecting them. Every double I have is a Block, but in rare occasions I have taken Surehands, to cut down on Pick Up RRs. Skinks with ag3 feel to me like ag2.
Posted by Mightypeon on 2015-10-06 17:37:41
Personally, I really like having kick on Lizards, so the first Skink rolling doubles gets that. If there are more doubles on the Skink, he gets leader.