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2011-12-11 21:36:00
34 votes, rating 3.7
34 votes, rating 3.7
Bloodbowl, the beautiful game?
I doubt so. More likely the lonely bashin game. Ok, I'm not one of those who always claim a change in the rules. I've been playing BB for several years and used to be an elf coach. I've been back from a sabbatical lately and didn't know the changes in LRB5+6... Theses changes just killed the Elf Game where you had fun doing spectacular things and show your talent with good strategy. Consequently, I must give my opinion concerning the combo skills of Claw-PoMB. Bloodbowl is now just a "who kills the most" battle, especially in the b-box. I kept playing C-Dwarves, Chaos teams against my expensive Dark Elves and it just ruined my team. Simply because I couldn't have enough cash to pay for the perm injuries or kills. I don't care about losing, but playing 3 vs. 11 most of the time is just not fun, for both coaches! Except a psychopath who just play BB for blood ;)
I know it's been talked about so many times, but I think the Claw skills has to be changed. Whether it can't be combo'ed or maybe just a -1 AV on the AV value, instead of bringing it down to AV7. Why? Simply because no BB skills give that much of a bonus. Accurate just gives you +1 to pass rolls, Extra Arm just +1, Two Heads just +1, VLL +1 too on leaps, you get it... If no change is made, I hope there will be a "ball" skills that boosts dice roll more than +1, hehe.
I used to play bloodbowl were casualties were important and unfrequent, I mean 2 to 4 in a game. So the game was all about positioning and strategy matter, like chess. Now, to my opinion once again, the LRB6 rules just bring a race to the biggest killer team in the game.
I know many elf teams and betweener teams win a lot of tournaments, and leagues, but playing in such matter makes you play one game in a week? or so, for average players and "full-time job+family+kids" coaches. So playing in the B-Box is just getting boring, for my 100 games played so far in the box, I faced too many same-mounted teams. The B-Box is great by the way, I found the best coaches in there, but I think the LRB6 is just killing half the game, I mean killing the "Beautiful Game" teams!
Please feel free to share your opinion, I am waiting for it ;)
I know it's been talked about so many times, but I think the Claw skills has to be changed. Whether it can't be combo'ed or maybe just a -1 AV on the AV value, instead of bringing it down to AV7. Why? Simply because no BB skills give that much of a bonus. Accurate just gives you +1 to pass rolls, Extra Arm just +1, Two Heads just +1, VLL +1 too on leaps, you get it... If no change is made, I hope there will be a "ball" skills that boosts dice roll more than +1, hehe.
I used to play bloodbowl were casualties were important and unfrequent, I mean 2 to 4 in a game. So the game was all about positioning and strategy matter, like chess. Now, to my opinion once again, the LRB6 rules just bring a race to the biggest killer team in the game.
I know many elf teams and betweener teams win a lot of tournaments, and leagues, but playing in such matter makes you play one game in a week? or so, for average players and "full-time job+family+kids" coaches. So playing in the B-Box is just getting boring, for my 100 games played so far in the box, I faced too many same-mounted teams. The B-Box is great by the way, I found the best coaches in there, but I think the LRB6 is just killing half the game, I mean killing the "Beautiful Game" teams!
Please feel free to share your opinion, I am waiting for it ;)
Comments
Posted by MiBasse on 2011-12-11 21:38:33
MB is generally much better than claw, so to say that no others skill gives as great a bonus is blatantly false.
Posted by blader4411 on 2011-12-11 21:40:45
Ironic that you're lamenting facing so many teams of the same build. Go back through the blogs, and see how many whines there are.
Your blog is like a ClawPOMBer: a lot of people here are tired of seeing them.
-Blader
Your blog is like a ClawPOMBer: a lot of people here are tired of seeing them.
-Blader
Posted by BooAhl on 2011-12-11 21:42:37
PO is the problem, not claw.
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-11 21:47:41
Yup, I agree to all of that. I doubt there would be a better solution than the LRB4 rule : no more than 2 skills can be combined.
I love all aspects of every team, I love bloodbowl, I just think this element is not well balanced. This is why so many people may whine. I understand why they do, too. Mutations could maybe on double rolls only? Chaos Gods aren't supposed to be that "generous" on their slaves! :)
I love all aspects of every team, I love bloodbowl, I just think this element is not well balanced. This is why so many people may whine. I understand why they do, too. Mutations could maybe on double rolls only? Chaos Gods aren't supposed to be that "generous" on their slaves! :)
Posted by pythrr on 2011-12-11 21:48:28
too long to read
i'll assume it is about OBBA
i'll assume it is about OBBA
Posted by Calcium on 2011-12-11 21:50:10
Is this blog anti clawPOMB, anti LRB6, or both?
Along with a lot of coaches here, you need to accept that there are many ways to play this game and theirs is just as valid as yours. You would still thrive in ranked or league, but the box is hardcore. Play there, accept that.
I however do like your suggestion of +1 for claw. But would that be +1 against AV7? If so that would be devastating for elves :)
Along with a lot of coaches here, you need to accept that there are many ways to play this game and theirs is just as valid as yours. You would still thrive in ranked or league, but the box is hardcore. Play there, accept that.
I however do like your suggestion of +1 for claw. But would that be +1 against AV7? If so that would be devastating for elves :)
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-11 21:55:18
Lol, I like your comments guys! As you may see, for those patient readers, I don't want to whine, I'm debating on the use of those skills.
I'd say my blog is anti-combo of three skills. I love the new LRB6!
I could be an orc player with a bashing style of play and still be out-strenghtened by a nnurgle/chaos team with even matched ST4 players BUT with claw & MB-PO.
Maybe Calcium has it, Bbox is just hardcore, not the playing field for elves, but as I said, it is also the only place I match good coaches besides tourneys! :)
I'd say my blog is anti-combo of three skills. I love the new LRB6!
I could be an orc player with a bashing style of play and still be out-strenghtened by a nnurgle/chaos team with even matched ST4 players BUT with claw & MB-PO.
Maybe Calcium has it, Bbox is just hardcore, not the playing field for elves, but as I said, it is also the only place I match good coaches besides tourneys! :)
Posted by uuni on 2011-12-11 21:56:46
If you play Dark Elves, what would you gain if Claw would change from flat AV7 to AV-1? Linemen and blitsers would retain the current situation, but your Witch Elves, Assasins and Runners would get more injuries with the same amout of hits.
Care to explain more?
Care to explain more?
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-11 22:00:12
Uuni, since I might not be clear enough : I accept the Claw skills, all BB skills are great, but the combination of three is just killer.
When you kill an elf, you kill on average the most expensive players in the game. They usually can't match on strenght too (obvious), especially DE with no big guys, so they are easily 2db blocked. Even with blodge, they fall often, so Claw-PO-MB kills them often!
To my experience, I see no fun in developing an elf team in the Box. I retired them, and will play my DE in my league.
When you kill an elf, you kill on average the most expensive players in the game. They usually can't match on strenght too (obvious), especially DE with no big guys, so they are easily 2db blocked. Even with blodge, they fall often, so Claw-PO-MB kills them often!
To my experience, I see no fun in developing an elf team in the Box. I retired them, and will play my DE in my league.
Posted by Garion on 2011-12-11 22:00:52
I disagree with most of what you say, for me this rule set has benfited the elves more than most races, yes the combo is lame, but not because it is an instant game winner, just because it has removed so much strategy from the game.
However I do agree that this rule set is absolutely terrible. they have really screwed up so many aspects of the game i loved. but hey ho were stuc with CRaP for ever now so there is nothing we can do about it sadly.
However I do agree that this rule set is absolutely terrible. they have really screwed up so many aspects of the game i loved. but hey ho were stuc with CRaP for ever now so there is nothing we can do about it sadly.
Posted by dode74 on 2011-12-11 22:02:52
Claw does what it is supposed to do - create an on-pitch attrition mechanic which is AV-neutral for the T1 teams. If anything should be nerfed then it is PO (as this would create the same effect for all AVs), although there's no data suggesting that the CPOMB teams actually win any more games than they should.
Part of the problem is off-pitch though - replacing positionals who are killed is usually easy enough for the bash teams (which have big treasuries, in the main), but skilling the ones which are all potential but little impact initially is the difficult bit. I'm thinking of BOBs, TGs, Mummies and the like. A new BOB is painful to skill up, especially in a team of skilled ones - you'll tend to block with the players with block first, so his chances of getting cas SPP are limited, and he's highly unlikely to be scoring many TDs; as such, his progression is even slower than normal. A possible solution (originally by mattgslater on TFF) to that may be to adjust the method of MVP award to increase his chances of getting the SPP from that - something as simple as allowing the MVP to be rerolled almost doubles the chances of that player getting the MVP.
Part of the problem is off-pitch though - replacing positionals who are killed is usually easy enough for the bash teams (which have big treasuries, in the main), but skilling the ones which are all potential but little impact initially is the difficult bit. I'm thinking of BOBs, TGs, Mummies and the like. A new BOB is painful to skill up, especially in a team of skilled ones - you'll tend to block with the players with block first, so his chances of getting cas SPP are limited, and he's highly unlikely to be scoring many TDs; as such, his progression is even slower than normal. A possible solution (originally by mattgslater on TFF) to that may be to adjust the method of MVP award to increase his chances of getting the SPP from that - something as simple as allowing the MVP to be rerolled almost doubles the chances of that player getting the MVP.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-12-11 22:05:28
Garion is right, Focusing your frustration on 1 skill set not seeing the whole picture. I am no fan of CRaP either, but it's what we've got. Best to say 'bollocks to it' and play!
And I think (along with a lot of other coaches) that this game is beautiful BECAUSE of the blood, so with that in mind it's the friggin Mona Lisa right now!!!!
And I think (along with a lot of other coaches) that this game is beautiful BECAUSE of the blood, so with that in mind it's the friggin Mona Lisa right now!!!!
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-11 22:09:20
There surely is nothing more frustrating than seeing a stunned CLAW-POMB injury result being rerolled to a perm inj. Maybe PO could only re-roll the AV roll? According we stick to the 3 skills combo.
What I say, if no changes are made, that combo advantages so much the bashing teams that Ball teams should have an equivalent, like bloodbowl has always been (balanced). CLAW-PoMB don't bring automatically wins, but take off so many players that a win is a MUST. A one-turner TD with a bashing team is rare, I know that, baller teams have good win record, but usually have no money banked to simply have a 11 man roster with no journeyman.
What I say, if no changes are made, that combo advantages so much the bashing teams that Ball teams should have an equivalent, like bloodbowl has always been (balanced). CLAW-PoMB don't bring automatically wins, but take off so many players that a win is a MUST. A one-turner TD with a bashing team is rare, I know that, baller teams have good win record, but usually have no money banked to simply have a 11 man roster with no journeyman.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-12-11 22:16:08
Uh oh...you said 'balance'
If this game was meant to be balanced then flings would be 6338 along with every other player in BB :)
Your argument is now entering very familiar territory and therefore really not required.
(I did like dode's comment mind)
If this game was meant to be balanced then flings would be 6338 along with every other player in BB :)
Your argument is now entering very familiar territory and therefore really not required.
(I did like dode's comment mind)
Posted by arw on 2011-12-11 22:24:39
Fouls are weaker, specialized blockers are stronger. I liked it better the other way around. Not because I pitty the dead though.
Ah well. Whatever.
Ah well. Whatever.
Posted by Rooke on 2011-12-11 23:13:23
If anything, claw has been nerfed in this version of the rules. It used to be +2 against all armour across the board (The only players that this would affect more are the rare AV 10 guys). Mighty Blow itself has been around forever, and not many people have ever said it was too powerful. Piling on by itself is not too powerful either. The problem with it is the (in my opinion flawed) mechanic that allows MB and claw to be applied to the PO roll as well.
Is there a solution on fumbbl? Why yes, yes there is! If you play in the league format, the league admin has the option to take MB and claw out of PO. I would like to think that this would have been the way the skill was supposed to function had the good folks who developed LRB 6 had taken some more time to seriously playtest some high TV chaos type teams.
Anyways, short of it is that yeah, there are leagues out there you can find (or create) where clawpomb is not the final answer to every problem.
Is there a solution on fumbbl? Why yes, yes there is! If you play in the league format, the league admin has the option to take MB and claw out of PO. I would like to think that this would have been the way the skill was supposed to function had the good folks who developed LRB 6 had taken some more time to seriously playtest some high TV chaos type teams.
Anyways, short of it is that yeah, there are leagues out there you can find (or create) where clawpomb is not the final answer to every problem.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-12-11 23:19:54
new claw is fine
mb is fine, as it always has been
PO is the problem.
end of story.
mb is fine, as it always has been
PO is the problem.
end of story.
Posted by Romanowski on 2011-12-11 23:20:57
I think everybody can agree on that something need to change, offcurse there will always be those how just calls everybody else whiners.
I think claw is the problem period.
To reduce players armour to 7 to all no elf(non Blodges) is simply lame.
Will people please stop using the argumnet that MB is better against armour 8 than claw ????
Its the combo off MB against armour 7 with a reroll againt players that dont have the AG/skills to get out off trouble.
I mean if people cant see that there is something wrong i guees they themselfves have been hiiting the Clawpomb botten for to long.
I dont know this is going to be solved, but something needs to be done.
Just remove claw could be a plan.
Another could be that pilling on players are stunned instead off just prone.
I think claw is the problem period.
To reduce players armour to 7 to all no elf(non Blodges) is simply lame.
Will people please stop using the argumnet that MB is better against armour 8 than claw ????
Its the combo off MB against armour 7 with a reroll againt players that dont have the AG/skills to get out off trouble.
I mean if people cant see that there is something wrong i guees they themselfves have been hiiting the Clawpomb botten for to long.
I dont know this is going to be solved, but something needs to be done.
Just remove claw could be a plan.
Another could be that pilling on players are stunned instead off just prone.
Posted by zakatan on 2011-12-11 23:25:30
that's basically the reason why i don't play box. Just play R or join a League
Posted by spiro on 2011-12-12 00:10:06
I do agree with you with all my limbs, except one hehe.
Fumbble is now for the killers, i think in lrb4 was too, but only for the foulers like mister "hicks"
These coaches just even won't play much with other team than chaos or CD, changes like mutations for CDorfs it's a honey for killer hearts.
There are some people too whose can't win match with strategy and tactic skills, but only by dice power and POMB. heh, what can i sayto the elves, RUN FOREST !!!
ps somw coaches here are claiming that elfish coaches are the gays, so... no more comment
Fumbble is now for the killers, i think in lrb4 was too, but only for the foulers like mister "hicks"
These coaches just even won't play much with other team than chaos or CD, changes like mutations for CDorfs it's a honey for killer hearts.
There are some people too whose can't win match with strategy and tactic skills, but only by dice power and POMB. heh, what can i sayto the elves, RUN FOREST !!!
ps somw coaches here are claiming that elfish coaches are the gays, so... no more comment
Posted by licker on 2011-12-12 00:16:50
"Will people please stop using the argumnet that MB is better against armour 8 than claw ????"
Why would they stop? It's clearly true that MB is better than claw against AV8.
Why would they stop? It's clearly true that MB is better than claw against AV8.
Posted by Arktoris on 2011-12-12 00:22:57
perhaps develop an elf team full of sneaky git / dirty player.
don't care if you win, just rip what hits the ground.
don't care if you win, just rip what hits the ground.
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-12-12 00:28:12
Skills which give more than +1, big Hand, Stunty, Nerves of Steel
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-12-12 00:35:12
Also, Multiple combo skills akin to CPOMB, Dump Off, Pass, Accurate, Strong Arm, Nerves of Steel, Catch, Diving Catch.
Posted by skirbo on 2011-12-12 01:11:08
I'd say the problem started when the rules changes for the chaotic teams, allowing mutations without doubles when skilling up, for the whole team (exkl. big guy).
As most say, it's the combo that's powerful, and not one skill.
Maybe the mutations without doubles, should have been limited to positionals, like warriors? Just a thought..
As most say, it's the combo that's powerful, and not one skill.
Maybe the mutations without doubles, should have been limited to positionals, like warriors? Just a thought..
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-12 01:26:51
I'm very happy to see how many people participated in my debate. I may not be the best to express myself in english, but it confirms most of the people see that as a problem. Probably the main reason why it is still a major concern.
Sesame street instead of bloodbowl, huh? Well you definetely do not know all of the bloodbowl, a game where tactics and strategy is supposed to be way more important than dice rolls. What CLAW-PoMB is just about, simple powerful dice rolls!
Sesame street instead of bloodbowl, huh? Well you definetely do not know all of the bloodbowl, a game where tactics and strategy is supposed to be way more important than dice rolls. What CLAW-PoMB is just about, simple powerful dice rolls!
Posted by liquidorange on 2011-12-12 01:41:55
In LRB4, if you had the skills of claw/rsc/piling on, you were MUCH more devastating than clawpomb. The equalizer was dirty player back then (which my local league had houseruled to be a simple +1, like it is in LRB 6. The penalty for going prone isn't quite as devastating, but it actually works out much better for dark elves to have claw and rsc fixed - as a wood elf coach for most of my time on FUMBBL, I found that those teams ruined mine.
The other downside of clawpomb is that until very late in the game, they don't generally get tackle. 76 spps at the very least, sometimes as much as 176. That's a lot of TV to create just one player that has it, whereas elves are going to have the counter of having a blodging/fend (flodging?) lineelf in just 31 spps.
Also, dark elf linemen are among the most expensive positionals in the game - but they're also the best. Having that armor, agility and scoring potential means that every player on your teams has to be marked. That's worth the investment.
The other downside of clawpomb is that until very late in the game, they don't generally get tackle. 76 spps at the very least, sometimes as much as 176. That's a lot of TV to create just one player that has it, whereas elves are going to have the counter of having a blodging/fend (flodging?) lineelf in just 31 spps.
Also, dark elf linemen are among the most expensive positionals in the game - but they're also the best. Having that armor, agility and scoring potential means that every player on your teams has to be marked. That's worth the investment.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-12-12 01:45:16
dauntless
Posted by awambawamb on 2011-12-12 01:54:33
my 2 cents about that... when I started playing, casualties where a RARE thing. now, it's a race to who's dealing most damage - and since the cas are the random part of the game most than anything else, it really nerfed the tactics.
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-12 03:33:17
I understand how good is your memory now Flashback ;)
You see, I had to play out of my race to match the bashing aspect of the box! But since this match didn't concern any Claw-PoMB, maybe you could start another blog on that!
You see, I had to play out of my race to match the bashing aspect of the box! But since this match didn't concern any Claw-PoMB, maybe you could start another blog on that!
Posted by Elyoukey on 2011-12-12 07:52:39
110 resurection is the answer, the clawpomb combo arise only with evolved teams. I think the 110 resurection format (as played in table top tourneys) is the most 'chesslike' format and you don't care about your players so you can play the full game
Posted by blader4411 on 2011-12-12 08:32:07
@Elyoukey:
Thing is, most people who play in an extended league like to be able to develop their teams.
Major tournaments also require development to enter.
Non-progression is going to be a League concept at most according to Christer, so there's no credence behind pushing for this in the competitive divisions.
-Blader
Thing is, most people who play in an extended league like to be able to develop their teams.
Major tournaments also require development to enter.
Non-progression is going to be a League concept at most according to Christer, so there's no credence behind pushing for this in the competitive divisions.
-Blader
Posted by pythrr on 2011-12-12 10:44:26
"110 resurection is the answer"
But what is the question?
Seriously, 110 Res is fine for a weekend tourny, but it removes most skills from the game. Half the joy of this game is developing teams.
Silly idea.
But what is the question?
Seriously, 110 Res is fine for a weekend tourny, but it removes most skills from the game. Half the joy of this game is developing teams.
Silly idea.
Posted by nothing on 2011-12-12 11:09:26
Claw+MB+PO is a problem for dwarves,definitely not for elves.
Posted by Garion on 2011-12-12 12:07:23
Claw is not a problem, people should also stop comparing it to lrb4 claw, yes it is weaker but lrb4 claw required a double to get, so should this one. The problem is how easy it is to develop these players, with no ageing and no doubles required skill development is linear, boring, predictable and just lame now.
If claw was a double, there would still be a problem which is Pilling On, which regardlesss of its power or not is just a stupid skill, it should just be removed and fouling should be as it was in lrb4, then things would be a little better. All that would be left then is the hundreds of other minor crappy things about this rule set.
If claw was a double, there would still be a problem which is Pilling On, which regardlesss of its power or not is just a stupid skill, it should just be removed and fouling should be as it was in lrb4, then things would be a little better. All that would be left then is the hundreds of other minor crappy things about this rule set.
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-12 12:50:18
"Linear skill development", absolutely! You think by playing in the bbox you'll match against every races and it will be one heck of a challenge, a more easy way to find games and good coaches. Well the challenge is there, but not the one you've expected. You'll quickly see your team facing C-Dwarves, Chaos, Chaos Pact, Nurgle, etc. nothing more redundant.
I'm afraid with this skill combo, too many coaches forgot or can't find how deep is Bloodbowl supposed to be...
I still think if no change is made the best way to play BB is in a league...
I'm afraid with this skill combo, too many coaches forgot or can't find how deep is Bloodbowl supposed to be...
I still think if no change is made the best way to play BB is in a league...
Posted by Garion on 2011-12-12 13:19:38
I find you do get matched against quite a wide variety of races in black box actually, but the problem is all the races now feel the same as each other, there are only a few races that feel quite different. you have all the elves are much the same as eachother, then all the cpomb teams are the same, then all the hybrid teams(undead, human, norse, zons etc..) are the same as each other, the only teams I really enjoy playing agaisnt these days that have any sort of individuality are skaven, dwarf, vampires and lizardmen, the rest can all just be merged into 3 teams.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-12-12 13:43:28
"I still think if no change is made the best way to play BB is in a league..."
Always has been. No change there.
Always has been. No change there.
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-12-12 17:35:44
Pythrr, I agree with that. Leagues are definitely what Blood Bowl was made for ideally between 6-8 teams i think.
Posted by latulike on 2011-12-12 20:16:45
Concerning that, leagues, I am in one pretty good right now, CFFL, do you guys have any other suggestions?
Posted by Rooke on 2011-12-12 22:07:51
Sure, I'll take the time for a shameless plug for the league I'm in. SOUPA. Piling on is nerfed and it's a progressive league that lets you use the same teams from season to season. Our playoffs are about halfway done and I'll be starting up another recruiting drive this January if you're interested.
-Rooke
Ps- The CFFL is a pretty awesome league, been watching a few of the games there and know a couple of the coaches. We have a few minor differences to them, contact me if you're interested.
-Rooke
Ps- The CFFL is a pretty awesome league, been watching a few of the games there and know a couple of the coaches. We have a few minor differences to them, contact me if you're interested.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-12-12 23:22:44
for UK/Euro
OBBA and WIL
all else are shite.
;)
OBBA and WIL
all else are shite.
;)
Posted by MrFoxTalbot on 2011-12-13 01:57:46
Makes a lot of sense.
Posted by Corvidius on 2011-12-13 03:14:18
Pythrr, :P the team scotland league is also kinda cool although obviously for us crazy kilt wearing types. :)