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2011-07-26 15:20:23
13 votes, rating 4.5
13 votes, rating 4.5
Analyses of Koadah's "Some Stats Jun/Jul"
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=20550
I have taken the top 10 teams of All Games and 180+ and compare their win percentage. Most of the top teams stay within a few percentage going up or down comparing if they are in the 180+ range or all games. The teams that strike me most that cannot compete at 180+ is Dwarf (7% drop), Lizardmen (12% drop), Norse (12% drop) and Undead (15% drop). See list below.
All games
1. Chaos Dwarf 55%
2. Skaven 55%
3. Undead 54%
4. Lizardmen 54%
5. Amazon 54%
6. Norse 53%
7. Wood Elf 52%
8. Chaos 50%
9. Dwarf 50%
10. Chaos Pact 50%
12. Human 49%
13. Khemri 49%
14. Dark Elf 48%
19. High Elf 44%
20. Vampire 40%
180+
1. Chaos Dwarf 58%
2. Skaven 57%
3. Dark Elf 57%
4. Amazon 57%
5. Chaos 55%
6. High Elf 55%
7. Wood Elf 50%
8. Vampire 50%
9. Human 48%
10. Khemri 48%
13. Chaos Pact 47%
16. Dwarf 43%
17. Lizardmen 42%
19. Norse 41%
20. Undead 39%
I agree on that Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On combo is a too good combo and that it could need the nerf bat. But if the combo is soo good, should they not dominate more? Should their win percentage not be more than it is? Both Dark Elf and Amazon (non claw teams) rank high on both list. At 180- both Dark Elf and Wood Elf is not in the top list, but as the teams get more skills they begin to shine above 180+. Some say a solution is to revamp the skills, let us make LRB7 FUMBBL. But instead we could also take a look at the teams and buff them instead. Lizardmen and Norse are the ones that shine at 180-, but drop hard when they go above 180+. While these list does not tell the whole truth about spiraling expenses, coach skill, games played, dominating Claw Mighty Blow and Piling on teams etc., it does indicate that they could need a revamp instead.
So for those who is thinking of revamping the rules. It might also be an idea to look at teams. While the creators of FUMBBL have started that their intention is to have different tiers between the teams, is this something that is still desirable?
In my opinion revamping of the rules should not strive towards complexity, but streamlining it and easy to play. Still make it possible to play it on board game if GW should even be slightly interested in what is going on at FUMBBL
Some food for thoughts.
Side note:
What happened to Orcs? I remember that Orcs was one of the dominating races under LRB4, but they have really taking a hit.
I have taken the top 10 teams of All Games and 180+ and compare their win percentage. Most of the top teams stay within a few percentage going up or down comparing if they are in the 180+ range or all games. The teams that strike me most that cannot compete at 180+ is Dwarf (7% drop), Lizardmen (12% drop), Norse (12% drop) and Undead (15% drop). See list below.
All games
1. Chaos Dwarf 55%
2. Skaven 55%
3. Undead 54%
4. Lizardmen 54%
5. Amazon 54%
6. Norse 53%
7. Wood Elf 52%
8. Chaos 50%
9. Dwarf 50%
10. Chaos Pact 50%
12. Human 49%
13. Khemri 49%
14. Dark Elf 48%
19. High Elf 44%
20. Vampire 40%
180+
1. Chaos Dwarf 58%
2. Skaven 57%
3. Dark Elf 57%
4. Amazon 57%
5. Chaos 55%
6. High Elf 55%
7. Wood Elf 50%
8. Vampire 50%
9. Human 48%
10. Khemri 48%
13. Chaos Pact 47%
16. Dwarf 43%
17. Lizardmen 42%
19. Norse 41%
20. Undead 39%
I agree on that Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On combo is a too good combo and that it could need the nerf bat. But if the combo is soo good, should they not dominate more? Should their win percentage not be more than it is? Both Dark Elf and Amazon (non claw teams) rank high on both list. At 180- both Dark Elf and Wood Elf is not in the top list, but as the teams get more skills they begin to shine above 180+. Some say a solution is to revamp the skills, let us make LRB7 FUMBBL. But instead we could also take a look at the teams and buff them instead. Lizardmen and Norse are the ones that shine at 180-, but drop hard when they go above 180+. While these list does not tell the whole truth about spiraling expenses, coach skill, games played, dominating Claw Mighty Blow and Piling on teams etc., it does indicate that they could need a revamp instead.
So for those who is thinking of revamping the rules. It might also be an idea to look at teams. While the creators of FUMBBL have started that their intention is to have different tiers between the teams, is this something that is still desirable?
In my opinion revamping of the rules should not strive towards complexity, but streamlining it and easy to play. Still make it possible to play it on board game if GW should even be slightly interested in what is going on at FUMBBL
Some food for thoughts.
Side note:
What happened to Orcs? I remember that Orcs was one of the dominating races under LRB4, but they have really taking a hit.
Comments
Posted by Garion on 2011-07-26 15:26:38
Yes definately keep tiers between teams, it is what makes the game interesting.
But teams should still be competative at any TV if possible.
Also Orcs were dominating team in LRB4 but they had similarly bad stats back then as well, this is usually attributed to the fact they are a starter race and a very common race which artificially lowers their stats.
Also elves have always won games. But it is the other bash teams like Dwarves and Orcs that have really suffered most because of CPOMB.
But teams should still be competative at any TV if possible.
Also Orcs were dominating team in LRB4 but they had similarly bad stats back then as well, this is usually attributed to the fact they are a starter race and a very common race which artificially lowers their stats.
Also elves have always won games. But it is the other bash teams like Dwarves and Orcs that have really suffered most because of CPOMB.
Posted by Randy_Moss on 2011-07-26 16:41:16
Delete Chaos Dwarves.
RM
RM
Posted by PainState on 2011-07-26 17:02:59
Orcs and Dwarves who got hit hardest by the CLPOMB NERF bat. That is why their fall from grace is so steap.
Posted by King_Ghidra on 2011-07-26 18:16:29
Even though there are some obvious discrepancies in win rates at different levels, the obvious observation is that all teams are 'competitive' at any TV.
"The teams that strike me most that cannot compete at 180+ is Dwarf (7% drop), Lizardmen (12% drop), Norse (12% drop) and Undead (15% drop)."
If Dwarves as a mass have a 43% win rate at 180+TV how can you possibly say that is not competitive? 43% is perfectly reasonable, even if we weren't accounting for a relatively small sample size in a specific time period, with considerable unaccounted variance in coaching. 39% for Undead? That's obviously not great relatively, but it's still 39%. We're not talking 10, 20% here.
Your no 9, Humans, who I presume you consider to be competitive, are only 5% better off - and still 10% behind CDwarves!
"The teams that strike me most that cannot compete at 180+ is Dwarf (7% drop), Lizardmen (12% drop), Norse (12% drop) and Undead (15% drop)."
If Dwarves as a mass have a 43% win rate at 180+TV how can you possibly say that is not competitive? 43% is perfectly reasonable, even if we weren't accounting for a relatively small sample size in a specific time period, with considerable unaccounted variance in coaching. 39% for Undead? That's obviously not great relatively, but it's still 39%. We're not talking 10, 20% here.
Your no 9, Humans, who I presume you consider to be competitive, are only 5% better off - and still 10% behind CDwarves!
Posted by Ehlers on 2011-07-26 21:19:00
@King_Ghidra
As I mention, I only looked at the top 10 teams and how they perform. You are more than welcome to look at the others which did not enter either of the top 10 list.
Neither did I look at how far behind a top team is on the list. But simple I outlined that when going above 180+ the list changes. Many people talk about how the skills are flawed, but instead it could be the teams.
Have you considered that it is not the skills that something is wrong with, but the roster positional of each teams?
Both Goblin and Halfing are not to be found in 180+, but then again they have always been considered a last tier team.
And yes there is a large gap from top tier team to the lower tier team.
The reason why I posted this is to give people who consider revamping the rules also to take the teams into considerations.
And Humans are competitive. They are actually ranked 9 out of 24th teams in the 180+. So is that not competitive to you? There was some rants on the forum about Human are not competitive and the worst team. Then a group for only human teams was made and now they are ranked top 10 in the 180+ range. Does that not say something? True that Chaos Dwarf might be the best team, but does that mean other teams cant be competitive?
So maybe it is not the skills that something is wrong with, but way of how people build and make their teams. Could even take coach level into considerations.
The reason why I wrote this blog was simple food for thoughts for those who are thinking of revamping the rules. Some skill changes or rule changes might change a lot more than intended. What might be a good idea, but not be a good idea in Box setting, but good idea in league setting.
As I mention, I only looked at the top 10 teams and how they perform. You are more than welcome to look at the others which did not enter either of the top 10 list.
Neither did I look at how far behind a top team is on the list. But simple I outlined that when going above 180+ the list changes. Many people talk about how the skills are flawed, but instead it could be the teams.
Have you considered that it is not the skills that something is wrong with, but the roster positional of each teams?
Both Goblin and Halfing are not to be found in 180+, but then again they have always been considered a last tier team.
And yes there is a large gap from top tier team to the lower tier team.
The reason why I posted this is to give people who consider revamping the rules also to take the teams into considerations.
And Humans are competitive. They are actually ranked 9 out of 24th teams in the 180+. So is that not competitive to you? There was some rants on the forum about Human are not competitive and the worst team. Then a group for only human teams was made and now they are ranked top 10 in the 180+ range. Does that not say something? True that Chaos Dwarf might be the best team, but does that mean other teams cant be competitive?
So maybe it is not the skills that something is wrong with, but way of how people build and make their teams. Could even take coach level into considerations.
The reason why I wrote this blog was simple food for thoughts for those who are thinking of revamping the rules. Some skill changes or rule changes might change a lot more than intended. What might be a good idea, but not be a good idea in Box setting, but good idea in league setting.
Posted by legowarrior on 2011-07-27 03:33:45
To see if the drop of lizardmen, Dwarfs and Norse are significant, why not do a Chi square analysis?
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-07-27 07:53:54
I tend to think the 8 clawpomb races need a little more time to truely begin to dominate. There can only be a slowly developing draw towards them but there are so many aspects to the game that you won't see the associated races be dominating right away. It's not easy to develop a chaos team to begin with and not everyone choses the most powerfull path. I for instance have a pact team but I can't help to feel drawn to also get guarders, leader and even kicker. The debate lately however makes me regret sometimes I didn't make a purist clawpomb team to start a hunt on RO and veryfy just how big of a difference it is.
Posted by RC on 2011-07-27 08:27:57
Yup, claw, mb po teams don't get good until they have some claw, mb , po on some players . That is +180 tv.
So one way to be competetive with .. lets say Lizzards.. is not to play games after tv180..
So one way to be competetive with .. lets say Lizzards.. is not to play games after tv180..
Posted by RandomOracle on 2011-07-27 12:28:50
Wreckage:
"I for instance have a pact team but I can't help to feel drawn to also get guarders, leader and even kicker. The debate lately however makes me regret sometimes I didn't make a purist clawpomb team to start a hunt on RO and veryfy just how big of a difference it is."
Do you think that the pure clawbomb path is more effective than taking some guard and other utility skills (which is what I have done)? I see a lot of people ignoring guard nowadays and I'm honestly not sure what's the most effective way.
"I for instance have a pact team but I can't help to feel drawn to also get guarders, leader and even kicker. The debate lately however makes me regret sometimes I didn't make a purist clawpomb team to start a hunt on RO and veryfy just how big of a difference it is."
Do you think that the pure clawbomb path is more effective than taking some guard and other utility skills (which is what I have done)? I see a lot of people ignoring guard nowadays and I'm honestly not sure what's the most effective way.