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2008-12-22 16:13:14
58 votes, rating 3.5
58 votes, rating 3.5
Concessions..
Conceding is a valid "tactic" live with it.
There are reasons for it to be included in the bloodbowl rules and there are reasons why it is frowned upon in Fumbbl.
There are rules already in place to deal with concessions as far as Christer (who is the fumbbl god) is concerned and I see no reason why these current concession rules do not work equally well in blackbox.
Personally I do not see the problems with conceding, yes you may save some players but you get no money and lose fanfactor and can even lose your best players.
And if someone concedes against you you may lose spps but you get a win and a shedload of money for no risk.
Just because some coaches (perhaps even the majority) would never concede for any in game reasons does not de facto make the rule wrong and in need of changing.
Imagine the majority of coaches getting to vote on every aspect of the game, every single rule in the rulebook.
Maybe in your view this would make the game better in some ways. Likely as not it would also ruin aspects of the game for others.
The majority may want to axe fouling or increase number of spps for scoring relative to cas or make wardancers av8 or make regen work on a 3+ or a million other changes.
Would you really want to play such a game continually modified by the majority.
There is already a ruleset in place for bloodbowl.
There is also a modified rulest in place for fumbbl, which we all sign up to.
Rule breakers will get dealt with.
I can understand people asking for rules changes to stop others from cheating.
I can understand people asking for extra things the magical things that would be the cherry on their fumbbl cake.
But I don't understand why people want to change how bloodbowl or fumbbl works just to make it fit better within their own moral standards or play styles.
Fumbbl is big enough to fit everybody in. It is big enough for all of us.
We have room for foulers, stallers, elfballers, pixel huggers, coaches that just want to play with woodelves or those who love khemri, coaches that love to kill players, coaches who love to score, coaches who always try to play up or even down in tr/ts and coaches who will always fight to death, no matter the cost.
Why then can't we have a little space for those who would try to minimise the damage to their team in the long run by utilising the concessions rule. There are already pro's and con's to conceding. So why do we need to remove it completely.
In almost all games there is a winner and loser. in a lot of games there is a way for someone to concede.
it may take some of the fun from the winner, but it definitely prevents the loser from hating playing the game.
I play fumbbl online to have fun. it is my free time and I choose to play fumbbl to enjoy it.
That is my primary concern.
If I stop having fun during a game for whatever reason, I will way up the options and either grit my teeth and hope for the best. or cut my losses and quit.
It's nothing personal it's just that i want to maximise my fun during my free time.
If and when the current concessions rule is broken offenders will be punished surely thats enough.
so next time you feel the need to concede feel no guilt
and the next time someone concedes against you smile at the easy money and the easy win and the fact that you still have all your players and that you didn't have to play against someone who wasn't having any fun and the fact that you can go and find another opponent.
After all it's only a game..
There are reasons for it to be included in the bloodbowl rules and there are reasons why it is frowned upon in Fumbbl.
There are rules already in place to deal with concessions as far as Christer (who is the fumbbl god) is concerned and I see no reason why these current concession rules do not work equally well in blackbox.
Personally I do not see the problems with conceding, yes you may save some players but you get no money and lose fanfactor and can even lose your best players.
And if someone concedes against you you may lose spps but you get a win and a shedload of money for no risk.
Just because some coaches (perhaps even the majority) would never concede for any in game reasons does not de facto make the rule wrong and in need of changing.
Imagine the majority of coaches getting to vote on every aspect of the game, every single rule in the rulebook.
Maybe in your view this would make the game better in some ways. Likely as not it would also ruin aspects of the game for others.
The majority may want to axe fouling or increase number of spps for scoring relative to cas or make wardancers av8 or make regen work on a 3+ or a million other changes.
Would you really want to play such a game continually modified by the majority.
There is already a ruleset in place for bloodbowl.
There is also a modified rulest in place for fumbbl, which we all sign up to.
Rule breakers will get dealt with.
I can understand people asking for rules changes to stop others from cheating.
I can understand people asking for extra things the magical things that would be the cherry on their fumbbl cake.
But I don't understand why people want to change how bloodbowl or fumbbl works just to make it fit better within their own moral standards or play styles.
Fumbbl is big enough to fit everybody in. It is big enough for all of us.
We have room for foulers, stallers, elfballers, pixel huggers, coaches that just want to play with woodelves or those who love khemri, coaches that love to kill players, coaches who love to score, coaches who always try to play up or even down in tr/ts and coaches who will always fight to death, no matter the cost.
Why then can't we have a little space for those who would try to minimise the damage to their team in the long run by utilising the concessions rule. There are already pro's and con's to conceding. So why do we need to remove it completely.
In almost all games there is a winner and loser. in a lot of games there is a way for someone to concede.
it may take some of the fun from the winner, but it definitely prevents the loser from hating playing the game.
I play fumbbl online to have fun. it is my free time and I choose to play fumbbl to enjoy it.
That is my primary concern.
If I stop having fun during a game for whatever reason, I will way up the options and either grit my teeth and hope for the best. or cut my losses and quit.
It's nothing personal it's just that i want to maximise my fun during my free time.
If and when the current concessions rule is broken offenders will be punished surely thats enough.
so next time you feel the need to concede feel no guilt
and the next time someone concedes against you smile at the easy money and the easy win and the fact that you still have all your players and that you didn't have to play against someone who wasn't having any fun and the fact that you can go and find another opponent.
After all it's only a game..
Comments
Posted by Cris on 2008-12-22 16:22:09
Well spoken, i have to say I agree with most of it.
Posted by Sockosensei on 2008-12-22 16:31:12
I really think you should add (a more concise version of) this bit to your profile and make people aware of your policy when negotiating matches:
[Quote]I play fumbbl online to have fun. it is my free time and I choose to play fumbbl to enjoy it.
That is my primary concern.
If I stop having fun during a game for whatever reason, I will way up the options and either grit my teeth and hope for the best. or cut my losses and quit.
It's nothing personal it's just that i want to maximise my fun during my free time.[/Quote]
[Quote]I play fumbbl online to have fun. it is my free time and I choose to play fumbbl to enjoy it.
That is my primary concern.
If I stop having fun during a game for whatever reason, I will way up the options and either grit my teeth and hope for the best. or cut my losses and quit.
It's nothing personal it's just that i want to maximise my fun during my free time.[/Quote]
Posted by JanMattys on 2008-12-22 16:40:09
Fumbbl is big.
A tiny part of it is called blackbox, and was made to present a challenge.
In *that* tiny part of Fumbbl that is blackbox, conceding is something that should be frowned upon. Blackbox wasn't made to let you run in front of danger. It's a place where you accept to play do or die games.
Same goes for R... in my opinion you can concede whenever you want in R, but if you do so in a tournament, or a smack.
It's all about the spirit of the thing you're playing in. Blackbox definitely should be concessions free.
A tiny part of it is called blackbox, and was made to present a challenge.
In *that* tiny part of Fumbbl that is blackbox, conceding is something that should be frowned upon. Blackbox wasn't made to let you run in front of danger. It's a place where you accept to play do or die games.
Same goes for R... in my opinion you can concede whenever you want in R, but if you do so in a tournament, or a smack.
It's all about the spirit of the thing you're playing in. Blackbox definitely should be concessions free.
Posted by Pirog on 2008-12-22 16:45:07
As with all things there are occasions when concessions are perfectly fine and others where it's a part of exploiting a system. I have noticed a handful of coaches that like to play very strong low TR teams in B and who have no regrets about conceding and retiring their teams at the first sign of a niggle, just to start a new team and give themselves better chances of winning again.
That is very cheesy. Muchos queso to put it in Spanglish words for some of the gentlemen I'm silently accusing... ;)
That is very cheesy. Muchos queso to put it in Spanglish words for some of the gentlemen I'm silently accusing... ;)
Posted by westerner on 2008-12-22 17:06:44
There are rules governing concessions which state: "Concessions are to be made only when there is merit for them. " That means you can't just concede on turn 1 as a tactic. You have to play on until the match is clearly beyond hope, at which point you can concede if you wish subject to the LRB4 penalties.
Posted by treborius on 2008-12-22 17:09:53
KenThis: I agree.
JanMattys:
"In *that* tiny part of Fumbbl that is blackbox, conceding is something that should be frowned upon."
Since 5 or 6 weeks BlackBox is the Division which is getting the most games in ;)
"Blackbox wasn't made to let you run in front of danger. It's a place where you accept to play do or die games."
...says who?
Sockosensei:
Why on earth should someone state one of the most naturally understood / self-evident facts on his profile?
JanMattys:
"In *that* tiny part of Fumbbl that is blackbox, conceding is something that should be frowned upon."
Since 5 or 6 weeks BlackBox is the Division which is getting the most games in ;)
"Blackbox wasn't made to let you run in front of danger. It's a place where you accept to play do or die games."
...says who?
Sockosensei:
Why on earth should someone state one of the most naturally understood / self-evident facts on his profile?
Posted by JanMattys on 2008-12-22 17:14:36
Treborius, a random pairing system implies that you are willing to face anything.
If you think it's ok to run when you don't face your kind of opponent, then why don't you just stick to R where you can CHOOSE the kind of opponent you prefer?
Saves you time, saves the rest of blackboxers time.
...and doesn't spoil the point of the division...
If you think it's ok to run when you don't face your kind of opponent, then why don't you just stick to R where you can CHOOSE the kind of opponent you prefer?
Saves you time, saves the rest of blackboxers time.
...and doesn't spoil the point of the division...
Posted by Calcium on 2008-12-22 17:27:27
Agrees.....well said mate
Posted by treborius on 2008-12-22 17:56:33
JanMattys:
"Treborius, a random pairing system implies that you are willing to face anything.
If you think it's ok to run when you don't face your kind of opponent, then why don't you just stick to R where you can CHOOSE the kind of opponent you prefer?"
You're coming across a bit categorical, there - I haven't been talking about people conceeding in turn 1 because they didn't like their opponent.
I am (and KenThis is) talking about conceeding with a "good reason" (or when there's "merit for it" - to be exact) ;)
And I wouldn't know why this shouldn't be possible in BlackBox as it is in any other division and in any TT-league that's played in faith of the LRB-rules.
Concessions do already have a high price (in terms of money lost, spp lost, FF lost), such that it's not in danger of getting abused by people who just don't like their drawn opponent in BlackBox, which is why I think your arguments are irrelevant.
"Treborius, a random pairing system implies that you are willing to face anything.
If you think it's ok to run when you don't face your kind of opponent, then why don't you just stick to R where you can CHOOSE the kind of opponent you prefer?"
You're coming across a bit categorical, there - I haven't been talking about people conceeding in turn 1 because they didn't like their opponent.
I am (and KenThis is) talking about conceeding with a "good reason" (or when there's "merit for it" - to be exact) ;)
And I wouldn't know why this shouldn't be possible in BlackBox as it is in any other division and in any TT-league that's played in faith of the LRB-rules.
Concessions do already have a high price (in terms of money lost, spp lost, FF lost), such that it's not in danger of getting abused by people who just don't like their drawn opponent in BlackBox, which is why I think your arguments are irrelevant.
Posted by KenThis on 2008-12-22 18:12:17
I just wanted to make it absolutely clear.
conceding turn 1 before even a block is thrown is wrong.
it's against the spirit of the original concession rule and also illegal in terms of Christer's rules in fumbbl.
I understand that people may be doing this in blackbox alpha stage but once the division is up and running for real i'm sure this will be stamped out.
I was talking about someone's rights to concede during the game following the rules in place on fumbbl.
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion.
As for the argument that blackbox is some kind of pure part of fumbbl where conceding should be banned.
thats why i wrote the blog in the first place.
there's enough room in fumbbl and even blackbox for everyone to be allowed to play how they want within the rules set down by Christer.
If people don't like that adapt or find somewhere else to play.
I'm all for people asking christer to stop cheating or possible exploitation or even asking for extra niceties.
But why people have to demand that he make a division or a rule change just to coincide with a personal, subjective and therefore biased viewpoint is beyond me...
conceding turn 1 before even a block is thrown is wrong.
it's against the spirit of the original concession rule and also illegal in terms of Christer's rules in fumbbl.
I understand that people may be doing this in blackbox alpha stage but once the division is up and running for real i'm sure this will be stamped out.
I was talking about someone's rights to concede during the game following the rules in place on fumbbl.
There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion.
As for the argument that blackbox is some kind of pure part of fumbbl where conceding should be banned.
thats why i wrote the blog in the first place.
there's enough room in fumbbl and even blackbox for everyone to be allowed to play how they want within the rules set down by Christer.
If people don't like that adapt or find somewhere else to play.
I'm all for people asking christer to stop cheating or possible exploitation or even asking for extra niceties.
But why people have to demand that he make a division or a rule change just to coincide with a personal, subjective and therefore biased viewpoint is beyond me...
Posted by Gromrilram on 2008-12-22 18:34:26
well spoken
Posted by spubbbba on 2008-12-22 19:13:11
There's nothing wrong with conceeding (as long as it's within site rules of course) it's part of the game.
Of course those of us who never conceed are free to mock those who throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble too ;P
Of course those of us who never conceed are free to mock those who throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble too ;P
Posted by Focus on 2008-12-22 19:13:18
Can't condone the way you play blackbox sorry dude, in ranked I wouldn't bat an eyelid but it annoys me in [B].
Posted by Peter_Thorpe on 2008-12-22 19:25:36
to this day ive never moaned at anyone conceeding to me
ken is right that its no way near a game ruiner, its a team advancer
and yeah, you get to look for another game anyway, so take the money and be happy
ken is right that its no way near a game ruiner, its a team advancer
and yeah, you get to look for another game anyway, so take the money and be happy