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2011-04-02 14:45:41
23 votes, rating 4
23 votes, rating 4
Offense on Fumbbl
I initially posted this on Shadows blog but think it probably deserves to be on mine.
I don't mean to hijack a thread but look at my team
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=586586
I spent a long time researching slang names for this team, and my intention was not to cause offense. I personally have no problem with the names I chose, if I did I wouldn't have included them obviously. But I am also very aware that I'm at the edge of acceptability.
They were already reported once for a nickname "Fag" which I have since learned in much more offensive in USA than it is in UK, and I was more than happy for the admins to change it.
I have since been contacted by a coach that I respect on Fumbbl who pointed out that he found some of the Nickname's offensive but that he wasn't going to report the team and did not expect me to actually do anything about it but just wanted me to know that I was skirting a line.
I was quite worried so canvassed opinion from an openly gay coach on fumbbl as to whether he felt any of the nickname's were offensive but he thought the team was funny, though he did think some of his gay friends may have found some of the nicknames offensive.
So what do I do? Do I change the team myself or wait till someone reports it?
I put the admins in the position of judging the grey area surrounding my team. A thankless task I bet they don't want, however if an admin called me in and said that the team concept or team nicknames were unacceptable then I wouldn't hesitate in changing them.
It's up to them and ultimately Christer to judge what is reasonable for fumbbl and the rest of us to abide by their decisions or go find something else to do with our time.
HOWEVER If my team caused/causes only half of the people offended by lizvis' use of that term to be uncomfortable enough to report it I'd hope the admins would call me into admin chat to do something about it.
To me that doesn't mean censorship but rather is just a sensible approach to keep fumbbl as broad and welcoming place to be as it is.
We don't all come from the same backround and we don't all find the same things offensive but we all agree to come play in the same place and abide by the same rules, not necessarily because they are fair in the real world but because Christer and the admins decide that it is the best way of keeping fumbbl running smoothly.
As I see it it's the exact same reason why we have bowlbot managing swear words in chat not because the majority of people find those words offensive, but because Christer decided that it was important in order to keep fumbbl working so well.
So ultimately its down to Christer and the admin's and rather than keep rehashing this discussion why not just follow the rules of fumbbl.
If you find something offensive then individually report it, if the admins and christer get enough reports they'll have to make a decision as to how to handle it for the good of fumbbl. Then we all as individuals decide if we agree enough with that decision as to whether we want to continue to play here or not.
Anyhow that turned out longer than I expected.
Cheers Ken
I don't mean to hijack a thread but look at my team
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=586586
I spent a long time researching slang names for this team, and my intention was not to cause offense. I personally have no problem with the names I chose, if I did I wouldn't have included them obviously. But I am also very aware that I'm at the edge of acceptability.
They were already reported once for a nickname "Fag" which I have since learned in much more offensive in USA than it is in UK, and I was more than happy for the admins to change it.
I have since been contacted by a coach that I respect on Fumbbl who pointed out that he found some of the Nickname's offensive but that he wasn't going to report the team and did not expect me to actually do anything about it but just wanted me to know that I was skirting a line.
I was quite worried so canvassed opinion from an openly gay coach on fumbbl as to whether he felt any of the nickname's were offensive but he thought the team was funny, though he did think some of his gay friends may have found some of the nicknames offensive.
So what do I do? Do I change the team myself or wait till someone reports it?
I put the admins in the position of judging the grey area surrounding my team. A thankless task I bet they don't want, however if an admin called me in and said that the team concept or team nicknames were unacceptable then I wouldn't hesitate in changing them.
It's up to them and ultimately Christer to judge what is reasonable for fumbbl and the rest of us to abide by their decisions or go find something else to do with our time.
HOWEVER If my team caused/causes only half of the people offended by lizvis' use of that term to be uncomfortable enough to report it I'd hope the admins would call me into admin chat to do something about it.
To me that doesn't mean censorship but rather is just a sensible approach to keep fumbbl as broad and welcoming place to be as it is.
We don't all come from the same backround and we don't all find the same things offensive but we all agree to come play in the same place and abide by the same rules, not necessarily because they are fair in the real world but because Christer and the admins decide that it is the best way of keeping fumbbl running smoothly.
As I see it it's the exact same reason why we have bowlbot managing swear words in chat not because the majority of people find those words offensive, but because Christer decided that it was important in order to keep fumbbl working so well.
So ultimately its down to Christer and the admin's and rather than keep rehashing this discussion why not just follow the rules of fumbbl.
If you find something offensive then individually report it, if the admins and christer get enough reports they'll have to make a decision as to how to handle it for the good of fumbbl. Then we all as individuals decide if we agree enough with that decision as to whether we want to continue to play here or not.
Anyhow that turned out longer than I expected.
Cheers Ken
Comments
Posted by Postie on 2011-04-02 15:14:40
Every grey team i ever made was reported within a day, and tbh mine were even more friendly than yours.
In the end it just boils down to the howmuchtheylikeyou-factor.
In the end it just boils down to the howmuchtheylikeyou-factor.
Posted by Nighteye on 2011-04-02 15:40:28
I find it amazing how people on this site suddenly got so good at taking offense on other peoples behalf.
Posted by JellyBelly on 2011-04-02 16:02:45
Good blog Ken.
Posted by Calcium on 2011-04-02 17:26:37
There's a massive difference between your team and the issue over 'downz' Ken.
The coach in question has lit the blue touch paper and watched coaches in FUMBBL go to war. He must love it. He must also love the 'support' he is clearly recieving from certain admins. At least you have gone public and stated that none of your teams are meant to cause offense. Nor are mine, and I am happy for any admin to adjust my teams as is deemed appropriate.
As for borderline teams, I know for a fact you as well as I have never made a team which includes reference to 'babies' or children for that matter. Especially one's that suffer from a genetic disability.....
Good blog Ken....
The coach in question has lit the blue touch paper and watched coaches in FUMBBL go to war. He must love it. He must also love the 'support' he is clearly recieving from certain admins. At least you have gone public and stated that none of your teams are meant to cause offense. Nor are mine, and I am happy for any admin to adjust my teams as is deemed appropriate.
As for borderline teams, I know for a fact you as well as I have never made a team which includes reference to 'babies' or children for that matter. Especially one's that suffer from a genetic disability.....
Good blog Ken....
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-04-02 17:41:04
I appreciate you posting your position Ken. I think the problem with skirting the edge of the naming rules is this: If you do it, someone else will want to try it too. And then someone else, and then another, and you get the idea. Then we have what we have now where the admins will enforce the rules on some people and not others. I'm not going to point fingers at who or why, since there are a myriad number of reasons why the rules are not enforced consistently. But that is the problem, the lack of consistency. I think you could contribute to the solution by voluntarily asking an admin to allow you to make this team less inflamatory/controversial. This would also make the admins job a little easier and might serve as an example to others. Whatever you decide, thanks for trying to help with the problem.
Posted by Macavity on 2011-04-02 18:25:05
You are right. We can't judge what offends other people, and humour (or attempted) is hardly something to defend with vigour.
Posted by Arktoris on 2011-04-02 18:37:25
yep. what's offensive in one nation may not be in another. I think you also made a good point to listen to those that may actually find fag offensive. this is why censorship is so subjective.
in game chat situation one:
bad guy: D0wnz babies make goofy faces and drool all day hahahaha
good guy: just to let you know, my next door neighbor has a child with down's syndrome, I'd appreciate it if you stop making fun of her.
bad guy: no way, it's my entitlement to say what I please.
in game chat situation two:
good guy: D0wnz babies make goofy faces and drool all day hahahaha
power hungry guy: I'm offended by that! (inside head: I'm so glad I heard him make a DS joke. finally, I have a way to hurt this guy who just clawpomb my favorite player)
/power hungry guy fills support ticket against good guy.
I made a few references about homosexuals being "gay" and was told by a coach (who was bisexual) that he considers "gay" an offensive term. Since he was a friend of mine, out of respect for that friendship, I refrain from using the word "gay" around him.
in game chat situation one:
bad guy: D0wnz babies make goofy faces and drool all day hahahaha
good guy: just to let you know, my next door neighbor has a child with down's syndrome, I'd appreciate it if you stop making fun of her.
bad guy: no way, it's my entitlement to say what I please.
in game chat situation two:
good guy: D0wnz babies make goofy faces and drool all day hahahaha
power hungry guy: I'm offended by that! (inside head: I'm so glad I heard him make a DS joke. finally, I have a way to hurt this guy who just clawpomb my favorite player)
/power hungry guy fills support ticket against good guy.
I made a few references about homosexuals being "gay" and was told by a coach (who was bisexual) that he considers "gay" an offensive term. Since he was a friend of mine, out of respect for that friendship, I refrain from using the word "gay" around him.
Posted by t0tem on 2011-04-02 19:17:37
I agree, it's subjetive yes, but it isn't rocket science. If enough people find it offensive, it's offensive and needs to be dealt with and coaches need to conform, end of story. But the fact that lizvis has not been reprimanded THAT I KNOW despite plenty of tickets on this issue tells me Christer has made it a matter of principle.
I don't know if he's justified in this. Freedom of speech is a very valuable principle out there in the real world but defending it in semi-anonymous online communities can be costly and if that's the reason, why the double standard? Racist or sexist remarks are different how?
I don't know if he's justified in this. Freedom of speech is a very valuable principle out there in the real world but defending it in semi-anonymous online communities can be costly and if that's the reason, why the double standard? Racist or sexist remarks are different how?
Posted by Nighteye on 2011-04-03 01:24:49
Dear god man, look at what you are actually typing T0tem.
"If enough people find it offensive, it's offensive and needs to be dealt with and coaches need to conform, end of story"
Do you truly believe that, if you sit a moment and think about it? And if you do, where do we stop? In how many situations does this apply?
"If enough people find it offensive, it's offensive and needs to be dealt with and coaches need to conform, end of story"
Do you truly believe that, if you sit a moment and think about it? And if you do, where do we stop? In how many situations does this apply?
Posted by Adar on 2011-04-03 01:34:45
I got close family who are gay and I really don't see how a highly successful gay themed team can be offensive.
But I was a bit disappointed to find out that you didn't have any cute pictures for them.This should however be their theme-song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG1WZqHTLQU&feature=related
But I was a bit disappointed to find out that you didn't have any cute pictures for them.This should however be their theme-song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG1WZqHTLQU&feature=related
Posted by Bobs on 2011-04-03 02:33:02
Slang names and their usage gain offensiveness more from intent than the actual word.
When they stop being descriptive and start being offensive is after the recipient has been taunted/abused/denigrated by some less educated or tolerant types.
Example def. Faggot or fagot - branch or twig, or bundle of these
def Gay - "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"
all depends on context doesnt it.
"I used a faggot to start my fire" can start people thinking strange things.
Another example black and white, again comes down to context and intent. Two purely descriptive terms take on layers of meaning depending on the mindset of the recipient.
So I see the biggest difference between your team and certain others is more in the intent than the usage. Yours has a theme, and although not deliberately offensive, does directly refer to people who use this site and by that can cause direct offense.
Other teams are intended to be offensive and by doing so reinforce a less social and attention seeking personality type, but dont directly offend anyone that uses the site ( I assume, my bad if I'm wrong) but only by association with the target of the abuse or through a more sociable moral standard...
So yeah stand your ground, and always consider if your identity here reflects your true RL identity as well.
When they stop being descriptive and start being offensive is after the recipient has been taunted/abused/denigrated by some less educated or tolerant types.
Example def. Faggot or fagot - branch or twig, or bundle of these
def Gay - "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"
all depends on context doesnt it.
"I used a faggot to start my fire" can start people thinking strange things.
Another example black and white, again comes down to context and intent. Two purely descriptive terms take on layers of meaning depending on the mindset of the recipient.
So I see the biggest difference between your team and certain others is more in the intent than the usage. Yours has a theme, and although not deliberately offensive, does directly refer to people who use this site and by that can cause direct offense.
Other teams are intended to be offensive and by doing so reinforce a less social and attention seeking personality type, but dont directly offend anyone that uses the site ( I assume, my bad if I'm wrong) but only by association with the target of the abuse or through a more sociable moral standard...
So yeah stand your ground, and always consider if your identity here reflects your true RL identity as well.
Posted by t0tem on 2011-04-03 02:50:44
Nighteye: yes i read it. yes i thought about it. yes i belive it. it applies in all situations.
Posted by t0tem on 2011-04-03 03:28:13
oh and I don't know where you draw the line. right now it's drawn at sexism, racism and religous slur, should we expand it to encompas disabililties? maybe not, but why would that all of a sudden be so unthinkable?
In fact it's strange that both sides (Nighteye excluded) of this argument seem to agree that the line is drawn depending on the community yet one side is impervious to the argument that the community get to decide where the line be drawn.
In fact it's strange that both sides (Nighteye excluded) of this argument seem to agree that the line is drawn depending on the community yet one side is impervious to the argument that the community get to decide where the line be drawn.
Posted by PurpleChest on 2011-04-03 05:21:30
personally i am thankful you have put the amount of thought into it you have, and that your drive is to seek to not be offensive.
That does make me wonder why you seek to skirt the line but not cross it. But I do applaud your thinking about it.
That does make me wonder why you seek to skirt the line but not cross it. But I do applaud your thinking about it.
Posted by Nighteye on 2011-04-03 13:09:21
So what will be the next target of this politically correct crusade?
And just for the record, most of the disabled people I know have a great sense of humor, and I cant think of any of them that would take any real offense to any of this. I DO know a whole lot of people that think it is their obligation to take offense on these guys behalf, and thus reducing them to one big general mass, instead of treating disabled people like everyone else, like individuals.
And just for the record, most of the disabled people I know have a great sense of humor, and I cant think of any of them that would take any real offense to any of this. I DO know a whole lot of people that think it is their obligation to take offense on these guys behalf, and thus reducing them to one big general mass, instead of treating disabled people like everyone else, like individuals.
Posted by DonTomaso on 2011-04-03 18:28:49
I find a team like this a whole lot less offensive then the non-themed teams where the players are called: Bob, snob, lobb, imny, imna.. etc.
Go FLUFF, no matter the fluff... almost!
Go FLUFF, no matter the fluff... almost!
Posted by t0tem on 2011-04-04 00:22:21
yeah i didnt think so.