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2010-02-01 09:52:31
38 votes, rating 5
38 votes, rating 5
About randomness with the client
I recently read some commented games and about people being diceraped or at least feeling like it.
To be honest, I felt like that a couple of times too while playing Fumbbl.
I guess a lot of you guys did that too occasionally. Sure, how can it be possible to throw so many 1's if you don't need them in one game.
But here is the interesting thing: I came to play a couple of Blood Bowl matches with some friends in real life.
And my very first game in our small league was even worse.
I played with my pro elves vs. a skaven team.
After the game half of my team was either dead or SI. The score was 3:2 for the Skaven.
It felt exactly the same as playing online sometimes. Failed dodges with a reroll, crappy blocks, quite impossible interceptions and so on.
That tought me, that the rolls in Fumbbl are not as non random as they sometimes seem.
The reason for you or me thinking that something has to be wrong with Fumbbls rolls might be that we can play a lot more and generate a lot more rolls when playing online than in real life at least most of us.
I learned my lesson and will not complain about the dice rolls that much anymore.
And by the way: yes it is just a game and a good coach plays that well that even a bad die won't mess up his game.
But I am not such a good coach yet.
To be honest, I felt like that a couple of times too while playing Fumbbl.
I guess a lot of you guys did that too occasionally. Sure, how can it be possible to throw so many 1's if you don't need them in one game.
But here is the interesting thing: I came to play a couple of Blood Bowl matches with some friends in real life.
And my very first game in our small league was even worse.
I played with my pro elves vs. a skaven team.
After the game half of my team was either dead or SI. The score was 3:2 for the Skaven.
It felt exactly the same as playing online sometimes. Failed dodges with a reroll, crappy blocks, quite impossible interceptions and so on.
That tought me, that the rolls in Fumbbl are not as non random as they sometimes seem.
The reason for you or me thinking that something has to be wrong with Fumbbls rolls might be that we can play a lot more and generate a lot more rolls when playing online than in real life at least most of us.
I learned my lesson and will not complain about the dice rolls that much anymore.
And by the way: yes it is just a game and a good coach plays that well that even a bad die won't mess up his game.
But I am not such a good coach yet.
Comments
Posted by ger0nim0 on 2010-02-01 17:43:45
The problem with the client in my opinion is only the Mersenne Twister used as random number generator.
The Twister itself is fine and gives us a good random number stream.
BUT, as I understood the implementation, the 2 players share a stream of random numbers. Which means:
If I do not take the 1 in this stream, (e.g. a GFI in the end of my turn), my opponent gets it.
And this is not random any more!
I do not doubt the Twister, I doubt the implementation!
The Twister itself is fine and gives us a good random number stream.
BUT, as I understood the implementation, the 2 players share a stream of random numbers. Which means:
If I do not take the 1 in this stream, (e.g. a GFI in the end of my turn), my opponent gets it.
And this is not random any more!
I do not doubt the Twister, I doubt the implementation!
Posted by Cavetroll on 2010-02-01 19:01:33
Heh, I rated 6 because you used the term 'diceraped'. You must have read one of my recently commented games. <lol>
Seriously, you have a good point about the difference in perception between the randomness in the client and the randomness in tabletop. I won't debate that point as I don't have enough information to support one argument over the other.
What I will point out is that at least in table top the coach is rolling the dice and gets to see the result. Then said coach has time to stare at it in disbelief (good or bad), soak in the result, and then move on. On the client, the dice are rolled for us, using a random number generator (which is not the same as rolling dice but I won't go there), and it all goes by so fast that we see the result before we see the die roll. For those coaches who are used to playing tabletop, this is backwards from the way we were conditioned. Plus, in the tabletop you can throw the dice across the room to vent your frustration. I'm not chucking my computer out the window no matter how much FUMBBL pisses me off :)
Seriously, you have a good point about the difference in perception between the randomness in the client and the randomness in tabletop. I won't debate that point as I don't have enough information to support one argument over the other.
What I will point out is that at least in table top the coach is rolling the dice and gets to see the result. Then said coach has time to stare at it in disbelief (good or bad), soak in the result, and then move on. On the client, the dice are rolled for us, using a random number generator (which is not the same as rolling dice but I won't go there), and it all goes by so fast that we see the result before we see the die roll. For those coaches who are used to playing tabletop, this is backwards from the way we were conditioned. Plus, in the tabletop you can throw the dice across the room to vent your frustration. I'm not chucking my computer out the window no matter how much FUMBBL pisses me off :)
Posted by treborius on 2010-02-01 19:49:54
i stumbled across this: "the rolls in fumbbl are not as non random as they sometimes seem"
wow, that's some deep insight - rated 6 because i don't think that it should not be rated the highest rating %-)
wow, that's some deep insight - rated 6 because i don't think that it should not be rated the highest rating %-)