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2009-12-01 00:10:41
22 votes, rating 3.8
22 votes, rating 3.8
Elfbowling in Ranked - Part 2
Thank you all for your comments and views.
I've given the matter some thought and this is what I've concluded. (They're my personal view, not gospel)
1 The attrition rate in elf vs elf games is not necessarily any different from most standard games (as an example, in a single match today my pass-obsessed wood elves killed 3 elves and niggled a 4th without even trying).
2 I play more matches against elf teams at 200+TR because most 200+TR power teams are built around punishment, not scoring. If I ever see a chaos team that doesn't have claw, MB, RSC or DP on most players, I will be happy to play them. At lower TR games, I play a much wider selection of teams, even when seriously outnumbered.
3 It's my view that power teams are more likely to develop further with a full squad without injuries. That thicker armour counts for a lot, whether it's against MB/claw or not. If anything, these teams, not elves, have an advantage in tournaments as they are more likely to be there and stay there in larger numbers.
4 It is a bad idea to play exclusively against one sort of opponent IF YOU EVER INTEND TO ENTER TOURNAMENTS. Where you cannot choose your opponent, you need to be able to beat any style of play. However, if you're only playing in Ranked because you can't get a game anywhere else because no one is around, then I don't see why you can't try and play only the sort of games you like.
5 People play for many different reasons. I know everyone is supposed to go all out to win every game, but there are those who play to skill up players first and win second; those who don't care if they win as long as they foul every turn; those who consider anything more that 1 score a half a waste of energy; those who want to score every turn. The list goes on. When two opposing coaches have different views on the way the game should be played, it can be a very funny game and pleasant for both coaches, or it can be abject misery from start to finish. Finding the right opponent (coach and team) is vital if you're here to have fun.
6 So in conclusion...
I have no problem with being blacklisted as an elfbowler. If my opponent is not going to enjoy the kind of games I want to play, he's right to refuse to play me.
I think he's right that I should try and play a more varied set of opponents. It will probably make me a better player and will certainly make it easier to get games.
But I will not sacrifice my players to satisfy some other coach's desire for variety.
I've given the matter some thought and this is what I've concluded. (They're my personal view, not gospel)
1 The attrition rate in elf vs elf games is not necessarily any different from most standard games (as an example, in a single match today my pass-obsessed wood elves killed 3 elves and niggled a 4th without even trying).
2 I play more matches against elf teams at 200+TR because most 200+TR power teams are built around punishment, not scoring. If I ever see a chaos team that doesn't have claw, MB, RSC or DP on most players, I will be happy to play them. At lower TR games, I play a much wider selection of teams, even when seriously outnumbered.
3 It's my view that power teams are more likely to develop further with a full squad without injuries. That thicker armour counts for a lot, whether it's against MB/claw or not. If anything, these teams, not elves, have an advantage in tournaments as they are more likely to be there and stay there in larger numbers.
4 It is a bad idea to play exclusively against one sort of opponent IF YOU EVER INTEND TO ENTER TOURNAMENTS. Where you cannot choose your opponent, you need to be able to beat any style of play. However, if you're only playing in Ranked because you can't get a game anywhere else because no one is around, then I don't see why you can't try and play only the sort of games you like.
5 People play for many different reasons. I know everyone is supposed to go all out to win every game, but there are those who play to skill up players first and win second; those who don't care if they win as long as they foul every turn; those who consider anything more that 1 score a half a waste of energy; those who want to score every turn. The list goes on. When two opposing coaches have different views on the way the game should be played, it can be a very funny game and pleasant for both coaches, or it can be abject misery from start to finish. Finding the right opponent (coach and team) is vital if you're here to have fun.
6 So in conclusion...
I have no problem with being blacklisted as an elfbowler. If my opponent is not going to enjoy the kind of games I want to play, he's right to refuse to play me.
I think he's right that I should try and play a more varied set of opponents. It will probably make me a better player and will certainly make it easier to get games.
But I will not sacrifice my players to satisfy some other coach's desire for variety.
Comments
Posted by Synn on 2009-12-01 01:45:27
Well..... at least appreciate all those skaven and woodelf teams that have the balls to play your Orcs.
And for the most part, your analysis is flawed. It presumes that higher TR = higher chance of winning and that elf attrition isn't a function of skill.
__Synn
And for the most part, your analysis is flawed. It presumes that higher TR = higher chance of winning and that elf attrition isn't a function of skill.
__Synn
Posted by fly on 2009-12-01 02:43:27
you can try worst of matchups for low av teams in blackbox. come and try it (i'm running on dead skaven and norse. what's your fuel?)
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2009-12-01 08:16:38
Playing bashers at high TR with elves is healthy. It helps keep spp bloaters in check and trims the team into range of more teams.
And it's fun too! :D
And it's fun too! :D
Posted by CircularLogic on 2009-12-01 13:01:07
Reading Zombie69`s comments from the previous blog post, I have to disagree.
Sure - elfbowling elves peak higher than non-elfbowling teams. But the whole 'it`s an unfair advantage in the tourney due to avoidance of attrition' is only half of the truth. It conveniently ignores the fact, that speedy teams team to develop faster and gain more SPP per match due to increased number of TDs and completitions PER MATCH. And yet i don`t see anyone calling for a ban of bashers with more than X games.
So yes - elfbowling elves get to higher TR than they usually do. Or I should rather say are more likely to get to higher TRs. But the lack of attrition is balanced against the lack of time contraint to develop on bashy teams.
Sure - elfbowling elves peak higher than non-elfbowling teams. But the whole 'it`s an unfair advantage in the tourney due to avoidance of attrition' is only half of the truth. It conveniently ignores the fact, that speedy teams team to develop faster and gain more SPP per match due to increased number of TDs and completitions PER MATCH. And yet i don`t see anyone calling for a ban of bashers with more than X games.
So yes - elfbowling elves get to higher TR than they usually do. Or I should rather say are more likely to get to higher TRs. But the lack of attrition is balanced against the lack of time contraint to develop on bashy teams.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-01 23:42:17
Your points 1 and 2 obviously contradict each other. You don't think there's more attrition involved in playing against bashy teams, but you avoid them because they're based on attrition? You're obviously coming up with excuses to try and get around the fact that you're trying to avoid attrition.
Your point 3 is also flawed. Bashy teams are more likely to survive attrition, and to be healthier come tournament time. But that's part of the balance! A healthy TR250 bashy team has about zero chance of beating a healthy TR250 elf team. That's why i'm saying that elfbowlers are getting an unfair advantage. In a well run league, elven superiority is compensated by having to carry along more permanent injuries.
Your point 4 is also flawed, and i've already addressed it in my comments to your previous blog. Basically, a coach can practice playing against bashers using another team of the same race, and have all the advantages of elfbowling with non of the inconvenients.
Your point 5 has already been addressed also in my comments to your last blog. Basically, even if you're not in it to win tournaments, your opponent might be, and you're giving him an unfair advantage in that tournament by playing against him prior to it.
Point 6, well you say it pretty clearly, this is all about saving your players. Thanks for proving my point!
Your point 3 is also flawed. Bashy teams are more likely to survive attrition, and to be healthier come tournament time. But that's part of the balance! A healthy TR250 bashy team has about zero chance of beating a healthy TR250 elf team. That's why i'm saying that elfbowlers are getting an unfair advantage. In a well run league, elven superiority is compensated by having to carry along more permanent injuries.
Your point 4 is also flawed, and i've already addressed it in my comments to your previous blog. Basically, a coach can practice playing against bashers using another team of the same race, and have all the advantages of elfbowling with non of the inconvenients.
Your point 5 has already been addressed also in my comments to your last blog. Basically, even if you're not in it to win tournaments, your opponent might be, and you're giving him an unfair advantage in that tournament by playing against him prior to it.
Point 6, well you say it pretty clearly, this is all about saving your players. Thanks for proving my point!
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-01 23:42:32
Circ, i disagree. First of all, i'm not convinced that elves gain more SPPs, because bashers get more CAS SPPs. Secondly, i fail to see how more SPPs could make your team weaker! On the opposite, more often than not, it will make your team stronger! Especially since it's easier to choose who you give completions and TDs to, than to choose who gets CAS, so it's much easier for elves to distribute their SPPs efficiently.
Sure, you can try getting more SPPs by playing more games instead, but that means more players getting hurt!
Elfbowlers will reach higher TR and higher TS than bashers, and come to the tournament with teams that are simply better, period. Elfbowling does give an unfair advantage, no matter how you look at it. In well run leagues, elves are balanced by suffering more attrition, and come to a tournament with about as much chance of winning as orcs or dwarves would. In ranked, elfbowlers come to a tournament with a teams that has a much higher chance of winning the tournament as any basher team would, and they do this by artificially bloating their team at a level higher than an elf team could normally reach if it played a wide range of opponents.
Sure, you can try getting more SPPs by playing more games instead, but that means more players getting hurt!
Elfbowlers will reach higher TR and higher TS than bashers, and come to the tournament with teams that are simply better, period. Elfbowling does give an unfair advantage, no matter how you look at it. In well run leagues, elves are balanced by suffering more attrition, and come to a tournament with about as much chance of winning as orcs or dwarves would. In ranked, elfbowlers come to a tournament with a teams that has a much higher chance of winning the tournament as any basher team would, and they do this by artificially bloating their team at a level higher than an elf team could normally reach if it played a wide range of opponents.
Posted by Stikki on 2009-12-02 00:36:37
Hi
Special note to Zombie69:
Sorry, I realise I was not exactly clear at the start. What I meant to say was not "my personal View" but rather "my personal experience". It makes a lot of difference. As I'm only using one team at the moment all my comments are based on my games with them.
The team is really only there to help skill up my passers. It's what I enjoy and I really REALLY don't care whether I win, draw or lose as long as I have some fun, throw some long bombs and keep the passer uninjured. At various times in the past, because of the huge boost to my TR a single player is giving me, I found myself trying to play games with as few as five or six active players. When I then have to give up four or five handicaps because my rating is unnaturally high you can, I hope, see why I would rather play a team looking to score every two turns than one which would score once a half and try to remove my entire team from the pitch along the way.
That is all I meant by avoiding teams designed to destroy.
As to the more general point of tournaments. I will withdraw my opinion. As I'm only talking about this particular team and as I never intend to enter it into any competitions, I don't really have any right to offer my opinion either way. Sorry.
As to my point 5; when I'm giving away a handicap for every player I can field, I think that's giving my opponent a significant advantage regardless of the type of team he's fielding. Perhaps the problem here is not with my choosing elf opponents, but with regularly fielding an uncompetitive team. However, until teams are vetted for cherrypicking prior to competition entry, or until my team is banned from Ranked for being too easy to beat, I don't see a solution.
I don't foul either. This is also giving my opponent an unfair advantage in terms of avoiding injury. Should I perhaps be blacklisted for this as well as elfbowling?
However, you may (or may not) be pleased to learn that since our initial chat, I have played against Amazons, Humans, Orcs, Khemri and Undead (as well as one each of High Elves and Dark Elves) so I am trying to broaden my horizons!
Stikki
PS: That orc game was really, really, really dull!
Special note to Zombie69:
Sorry, I realise I was not exactly clear at the start. What I meant to say was not "my personal View" but rather "my personal experience". It makes a lot of difference. As I'm only using one team at the moment all my comments are based on my games with them.
The team is really only there to help skill up my passers. It's what I enjoy and I really REALLY don't care whether I win, draw or lose as long as I have some fun, throw some long bombs and keep the passer uninjured. At various times in the past, because of the huge boost to my TR a single player is giving me, I found myself trying to play games with as few as five or six active players. When I then have to give up four or five handicaps because my rating is unnaturally high you can, I hope, see why I would rather play a team looking to score every two turns than one which would score once a half and try to remove my entire team from the pitch along the way.
That is all I meant by avoiding teams designed to destroy.
As to the more general point of tournaments. I will withdraw my opinion. As I'm only talking about this particular team and as I never intend to enter it into any competitions, I don't really have any right to offer my opinion either way. Sorry.
As to my point 5; when I'm giving away a handicap for every player I can field, I think that's giving my opponent a significant advantage regardless of the type of team he's fielding. Perhaps the problem here is not with my choosing elf opponents, but with regularly fielding an uncompetitive team. However, until teams are vetted for cherrypicking prior to competition entry, or until my team is banned from Ranked for being too easy to beat, I don't see a solution.
I don't foul either. This is also giving my opponent an unfair advantage in terms of avoiding injury. Should I perhaps be blacklisted for this as well as elfbowling?
However, you may (or may not) be pleased to learn that since our initial chat, I have played against Amazons, Humans, Orcs, Khemri and Undead (as well as one each of High Elves and Dark Elves) so I am trying to broaden my horizons!
Stikki
PS: That orc game was really, really, really dull!
Posted by CircularLogic on 2009-12-02 09:54:36
Zombie, if you say that elves should come to a tourney and have the exact same win chance as bashers in the first round, then why on earth would you bring elves? Because they are way more likely to take damage and drop in power. So the balance should be, that in a KO tourney elves are better during the first rounds, while basher simply keep their - albeit lower - power.
On top you don`t seem to get my arguement about faster development. Because elves develop faster than bashy teams and can distribute SPP easier, they can grow faster. This faster grow is kept in check by attrition. But in a closed league, everyone has the same amount of games and there are only so many games until the final cup. In an open league, bashers don`t have to care about the speed in which they develop, but can take their time until they max out power-wise. So if you say that there must be attrition for the elves, then there must be a time constraint for the bashers, that forces them to come with an imperfect team. This clearly isn`t the case, so why enforce attrition?
On top you don`t seem to get my arguement about faster development. Because elves develop faster than bashy teams and can distribute SPP easier, they can grow faster. This faster grow is kept in check by attrition. But in a closed league, everyone has the same amount of games and there are only so many games until the final cup. In an open league, bashers don`t have to care about the speed in which they develop, but can take their time until they max out power-wise. So if you say that there must be attrition for the elves, then there must be a time constraint for the bashers, that forces them to come with an imperfect team. This clearly isn`t the case, so why enforce attrition?
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-02 18:08:28
Circ, i didn't say they have the same chance in the first round, i said they have the same chance to win the tourney. for the first round, they have a higher chance of winning, even when playing in a balanced league, especially if they're bringing a wizard.
As for your argument about playing more games... I don't buy it. In a balanced open leagues where teams can play as many games as they want but have to play a variety of opponents (e.g. in the black box here), bashers can reach higher TR/TS, but elves compensate for that with greater ability to actually win games. I've seen it multiple times in the past and i maintain that a lower TR elf team (lower because of attrition) stands a good chance of beating a higher TR bashy team. If they're at the same TR level and the elf team is healthy, it's not even close.
You don't need to enforce a limit to the number of games played, you just need to enforce playing against a variety of opponents. Then elves and chaos will stand the same chance of winning a major, which certainly isn't the case when you take elfbowlers into consideration.
As for your argument about playing more games... I don't buy it. In a balanced open leagues where teams can play as many games as they want but have to play a variety of opponents (e.g. in the black box here), bashers can reach higher TR/TS, but elves compensate for that with greater ability to actually win games. I've seen it multiple times in the past and i maintain that a lower TR elf team (lower because of attrition) stands a good chance of beating a higher TR bashy team. If they're at the same TR level and the elf team is healthy, it's not even close.
You don't need to enforce a limit to the number of games played, you just need to enforce playing against a variety of opponents. Then elves and chaos will stand the same chance of winning a major, which certainly isn't the case when you take elfbowlers into consideration.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-12-02 18:15:43
Stikki, remember that even if you don't enter tournaments, some of the teams you're facing will. You're giving them an unfair advantage. Ranked is supposed to be a competitive environment. What you're doing destroys the balance that is necessary to maintain a level playing field for that competition.
Posted by Curro on 2009-12-03 13:47:56
Why don't you all who want "unfair" advantages play Stikki before entering tourneys, and then let him play how on earth he wants to the rest of the year?
This is stupid...
Curro
This is stupid...
Curro