Posted by Pirog on 2009-03-25 03:38:08

I think one problem is that women's emancipation and the fact that both parents in a relationship needs to work has taken a toll on how many kids today are brought up. I have often thought about it myself. I'm just 26 but I can almost gasp at what some kids say nowdays. The lack of respect against elders and so forth.

I don't think society will ever be good at raising children. If the parents won't find the time then some parts will be lacking.

Don't take it as me wanting som conservative world were all women are housewives though. It's just a reflection :)

Posted by paulhicks on 2009-03-25 04:30:41

Pirog,

I think what you are getting at (sorry if i'm wrong) is something myself and some of the other childcare profesionals i work with were discussing the other day.

There have been many changes during recent years (the last 2 generations at most) in the styles and environments in which children are raised nowadays.

There have been a great number of changes that ARE positive such as women leaving the home, decrease in the use of corporal punishment etc but these changes leave a sort of void that takes a while to fill.

If i use the example of corporal punishment (smacking as a punishment) and focus on the English system for a moment it may help to explain what i mean.

Smaking (and caneing etc) worked. They had the effect (to a reasonable success rate) that was intended and were used for a very long time. (PLEASE NOTE I HAVE NOT SAID SMAKING CHILDREN IS RIGHT BEFORE ANYONE MISENTURPRITS THIS).
For the first time in recorded English history corporal punnishment of young children is not allowed (at the moment parents can still gently smack children under certain guidelines but it is very rare and will soon be outlawed altogether).
This is a good thing. You see whilst smaking does work as a deterent it does NOT work as well (and can have a number of adverse long term side effects) as other newer methods that are being introduced now (I won't detail these here but if anyone IS interested in a brief overview of successful behaviour techniques they can PM me). The problem is that there is this "vacuum of change" created that takes a while to fill.

So yes although almost all of the changes we are seeing over recent years/ decades are good they can still have a temorary negative effect of childrens behaviour and developement.

I hope this made soem sense.

Posted by pythrr on 2009-03-25 05:00:54

Bring back public switching!

Posted by pythrr on 2009-03-25 05:03:06

Seriously tho. One problem that PH's post fails to address is the new idea's on child-management, while wonderful, require a lot more intelligence and patience in order to be effective than did the somewhat more crude systems of yesteryear. This is a problem because, as we all know, there are many cimplete idiots out there "raising" children, who are too stupid/lazy/apathetic to make the new systems of behavioural management work. My 2 cents.

Posted by paulhicks on 2009-03-25 05:11:13

Absolutely right Pirog (though i wouldnt describe the parents i work with in that way ;P )and this is what creates the vacuum i was atlking about at least in the case of behaviour management.

The old methods have been removed but the main people delivering the care and upbringing havnt been given the new knowledge or skills.

Posted by Kondor on 2009-03-25 05:11:45

I teach, middle school so I know exactly where you are coming from. I must say you have not come near the worst of it. The problem with public schools is that the general population has become very coarse. It is emulated by the young. You can be sure that the child harassing your son has an older sibling that he is emulating and comes from a home supported by a single mother with several children.

Mom is doing everything she can to keep the kids in school with a roof over their heads. At home the kids are home alone most of the time so they run the show with little or no consequences for their actions.

What comes next, we turn to the school to raise the child and provide the norms that were once instilled in the home. The school cannot supply this support with limited alternatives. (I do not mean money.) Every child in California is entitled to a free and MANDATORY education. No child is ever truly expelled from school. They are moved to another school in the district.

Last week, I told a student he had been leaving class too often so he could not use the restroom at that time. He said "Fine I'll just go to the nurse's station to get out of here and you can't stop me." I told him he would be referred to the office if he left. He turned to his desk and loudly stated "fine you f..... fag."

This is a student who has been suspended for graffiti, fighting, and harassing students. Yesterday he was back in my classroom as if nothing had happened. Dad is a gangbanger in the pen, and he has said once school is done for him he is just "going into the family business." You tell me what we do if young people like this are entitled to a compulsory education.

This is the area where schools need more authority before anything will change.

Posted by paulhicks on 2009-03-25 05:21:10

Kondor i was writing about early years behavior strategies and focusing particulrly on England and the work i do here with younger children. I wouldn't prepose to know about the problems you face within your job though i can tell you i have a lot of respect for you working with children of that age.. its not something i would want to do regardless of what other issues they have.

Thenew behaviour strategies that are being developed and that i was talking about work exceedingly well when put into place from an early age and used with consistency betwen home environment and the educational setting but they do not adress fully what you would do in a situation such as yours (thats not to say there arnt strategies... just not the ones i was talking about or ones im familiar with).

Posted by MachSphere on 2009-03-25 05:21:37

If you heard the way my neighbours have screaming fits at their boys when they have possibly done something wrong, it may give you some idea where they get it from.

Not to mention these boys smash all sorts of stuff in the their backyard and through all sorts of stuff at my house.

It's a really sad state of affairs and I'm sorry your son is being bullied.

Posted by pythrr on 2009-03-25 05:43:21

Pirog! Paulie, t'is me!

Posted by paulhicks on 2009-03-25 05:46:30

sorry pythrr, its about 430 am now and im deciding wether to bother getting a couple of hours sleep or not... not thinking well :D

Posted by westerner on 2009-03-25 06:33:22

Problem is society does not value child care. Quality parenting takes time.

Posted by Chewie on 2009-03-25 08:41:35

Regardless of the various strategies that can be used to discipline our own children, it's obvious that the child bullying your own hasn't been subjected to the ones that work.

Contact the school, they should have a bullying policy in place to deal with situations like this. As the bullying happens on the school bus, it's under their remit.

Posted by Wreckage on 2009-03-25 12:14:29

Hm, I remember being confronted with highly offensive language in kindergarden. It attracts young people pretty much because elder generations use it but don't allow the youngsters to use it themselves. So the elder youngsters grab it from elder youngersters and these from elder youngsters.. Luckily it doesn't really matter does it? It's just words and when this is your only problem, I'd think the only real change here is, that your kid is telling you that. But it's fine.. you can stick needles in his brain, fry him or chop him into pieces that won't change being confronted with offensive language.... and it's not a new phenomen either...

However, you can expect things to get much worse next year ;)

Posted by koadah on 2009-03-25 15:09:46

If the child is being bullied then that is what needs to be addressed.

Nothing has changed here. Kids (and adults) have been bullied since the begining of mankind and they always will.

So the language is a bit different. It changes every year.

"Have a nice day" can be pretty menacing if you know how to say it.

Posted by Jon_Guitard on 2009-03-25 18:09:29

looking at my own kids, I just don't get how parents can let it get so bad. My neighbour has four kids, right little terrors the lot, and he asked me what my secret was.

I DIDN'T START YESTERDAY. My kids have known since day one that there were behaviours that were not acceptable. Biggest thing though, I rarely curse, or use off colour language anymore. It's like guns. I've been an avid hunter all my life, but I moved all my rifles to my Uncles cabin when my son was born. The two don't mix well.

Children these days are being faced more and more with parents who don't want to move their own juvenile behaviour, or lifestyle to the attic when they have kids. Anything mom or dad does is by definition, all right.

Posted by PhrollikK on 2009-03-25 18:44:34

Have worked alot with kids 9-18 and it always makes me sad to hear them speak of different subjects that they discuss among themselves. Mostly it's the older kids but unfortunately not always.

For example the discussions can range from gang raping, tentacle raping to murder/snuff movies on the net and so on. They really are subjected to a gruesome view of the world and what gets me everytime is where are the parents?

Parents play a MAJOR role in how kids turn out, there is no denying. But todays society places harsh demands on parents, who cannot always answer the call of parenting.

Posted by Royston on 2009-03-25 19:39:44

I find it bad how some people have mentioned single parent families and families where both parents work as one of the major culprits for having disfunctional kids.

This is stereotyping and these "unusual" family setups can actually work and produce fully functioning members of society.

Posted by Crazy_Lemur on 2009-03-25 20:17:29

I am 13 and quite familiar with this sort of behaviour, my language is actually quite appalling. My parents have been there teaching me the right ways, I am not even allowed to say fart in my house. But I still swear and fight, but only amongst people my age. I also talk about things like tentacle rape, and have watched certain disturbing videos. The thing is, none of that is my parents fault, they tried their hardest.
I know alot of people who swear at teachers, are physically abusive to teacher, they steal, and are generally horrible people, but it is always the case that they have not to strict parents, or not to strict teachers. One of my teachers lets students get away with anything, and that's what I think the problem is. People not being strict enough.

I'm not really sure what point I have tried to make, random ramblings maybe. But I hope you have kind of got the general gist of what I am saying...


-CL

Posted by Jon_Guitard on 2009-03-25 21:23:08

There you have it son. It's a truth that kids do want and need structure and rules. Lax discipline creates an exponential problem, because in the end, loving discipline shows that we as parents care and love our children. Even the children understand it.

Mother is the name for God on the lips of every child in the world. (the Crow)

Posted by EdgeDante on 2009-03-26 08:59:57

Human psychology just isn't as simple as that.

If you tell someone (be it a kid or an adult) not to do something, or that it's "off-limits" it WILL be a natural reaction that they want to do it more. It's the same human complex that makes us want women or cars or houses we can't have - you always want that thing that's out of reach. It's in our instincts.

If you want someone to act a certain way you have to present that bad sorts of mannerisms to them as you want them to be seen. If you don't want your kid to drink beer for example, expose them to some stupid, obnoxious, overweight and NASCAR fans as they're drinking beers with one another every time they're seen. At the same time, expose them to a successful, independently wealthy gentleman with a smokin' hot girlfriend who only drinks on occasion and is never seen within 10 feet of a beer.

My mother was a psych major, and that very tactic worked on me. I loathe the very sight of beer to this day. If I drink, it's shots. Never, ever a beer.

Threatening your kids with punishments, beating them, just telling them not to do stuff, or various other traditional forms of "discipline" are archaic and, more importantly, entirely ineffective methods of instilling the right behaviors. If you want real results, SHOW real results.