Posted by nobbynobbs on 2015-01-23 22:40:12

They keep cropping up in the naf meetings but I think they keep getting shot down.

Posted by garyt1 on 2015-01-23 22:40:42

They were completely slated on FUMBBL forums.

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 22:41:38

They are God awful

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 22:43:59

But once custom rosters are possible you are free to use them

Posted by Calcium on 2015-01-23 22:51:13

They are good fun in Cyanide, don't see any reason for them to work here, after all we have Pact/Amazon and the stupidest team to ever grace BB.... Slann!

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 22:59:08

They are official races though Calcium. If the NAF and fumbbl consider that awful roster official it destroys any possible chance of there being a good khorne roster becoming official in the future.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-23 23:01:56

Cyanide is as official as it gets, like it or not...

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-23 23:02:30

I don't but there u go. It is what it is.

Posted by Christer on 2015-01-23 23:16:40

FUMBBL will more or less follow what the NAF chooses to do with the roster. From what I heard in the NAFcast podcast (episode #5 if I'm not mistaken), it's still up on the agenda to make a decision about.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-23 23:18:03

Cyanide aren't official. They have an official licence. GW stated, they were happy enough with Cyanide making a Khorne roster, but they had no plans of adding it 'officially' themselves.

Posted by Macabeo on 2015-01-23 23:18:18

I'm with Garion, terrible terrible design. Adopting it here in FUMBBL may lead to people accepting it in the long term, better to get rid of it ASAP so a better Khorne roster can be proposed.

Posted by sann0638 on 2015-01-23 23:18:33

Christer listens! Whoop! Yep, still on the NAF agenda (literally...)

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 23:19:07

The correct call from christer. Let's just pray the naf don't allow that sucky roster

Posted by Sammler_der_Seelen on 2015-01-23 23:35:08

Played One Time on tabletop vs a khorne Team ,to be fair i played a tzeentch rooster.i think in half 2 i was going with 5 Players .cant say it was exactly Fun but was worth the try.

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 23:35:50

Also if NAF allow this disgrace of a roster they will have to allow bretonnia which is coming soon and any other craps cyanide tries to shovel.

Posted by Calcium on 2015-01-23 23:39:48

Well personally I like the roster, and hope it gets implemented.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-23 23:44:57

Can't live in the past though Garion... even we are all playing a 20 year old game from our childhoods lol. Thanks for the replies Christer and Mike. While the roster may not float everyone's boat it's certainly not overpowered at least.

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-23 23:54:17

Again If the NAF and fumbbl consider that awful roster official it destroys any possible chance of there being a good khorne roster becoming official in the future

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-23 23:56:04

How is a "good" Khorne roster gonna become official exactly?

Posted by koadah on 2015-01-23 23:56:27

When custom rosters get here we'll be able to use whatever we like. Including Space Marines. \o/

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-01-24 00:56:22

Almighty Nuffle, deliver us from the Quorn roster!

Posted by Lorebass on 2015-01-24 01:01:12

I mean, we have Symian. We can have Khorne too. But for league.

Posted by happygrue on 2015-01-24 01:14:09

What is a "good" roster is very much different from person to person. When fluff gets in the way of gameplay you have better fluff but a worse game. The Khorne roster seems like a wacky but perhaps fun roster to play (much like apes, wacky but fun). The fact that it's wrapped in "Khorne fluff" is, as I understand it, a big part of the problem for many folks. Saying "It's a terrible roster" is oversimplifying it, though I can understand not wanting it to get mainline acceptance under the Khorne umbrella for those purists who are holding out hope for some magical committee to fix this and all future wrongs. I myself would like that. :D

I say this, full disclosure, as someone who cares *almost* not a lick about fluff. If it's a fun roster I'd like to see it, even as others want to tear their eyeballs out just looking at it. We'll just have to see where the NAF come down on it.

Posted by fidius on 2015-01-24 02:17:48

There is already a "good" Khorne roster, it's called Chaos.

Posted by gamelsetlmatch on 2015-01-24 02:47:43

No, it isn't chaos..

..it is Dark Elves

Posted by garyt1 on 2015-01-24 02:54:37

Khaine and Khorne are different.

Posted by NerdBird on 2015-01-24 03:15:30

So, we want a fluffy Khorne roster, but by nuffle we don't want a fluffy High Elf roster?

I thought the game was pushing for a more generic approach to separate this game from the warhammer world? Well unless we are talking about this end times crap that is supposedly coming up....then I just want to cry.

Posted by Arktoris on 2015-01-24 04:06:20

rather than creating yet another cheesey chaos team, I think they should make more vampire teams.

Posted by Lorebass on 2015-01-24 09:10:28

I want a Gerbil team.

Posted by Lordillo on 2015-01-24 11:45:29

A "good" Khorne roster would be that had been properly (and openly) tested, and designed without any stupid constraint, as was the case for the one in Cyanide.

That said, you cannot separate the debate about Khorne from the one of Bretonia.

And honestly, there is no reason to change something that is working almost perfectly. And Khorne wouldn't fix in any way that "almost" part.

If you want to play in League with whatever experimental roster... that's as good as a league run in your garage. Nice, but wouldn't affect me in the slightest. Add also squiggs, please.

Posted by Roland on 2015-01-24 12:09:10

What exactly is wrong with this roster?

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-24 12:30:04

Not much really. Not internally consistent with the Bloodletters getting Regen but not the Heralds. Saying that this Khorne roster would stop a remake is not entirely true, Khemri and Ogres have changed quite drastically.

Posted by Lordillo on 2015-01-24 13:13:20

For me, it is worse the fact that it has been "proposed" by a company that has no autority to make anything official outside of their own game. Which is not the game I played, not in tabletop, not here.

It is as consistent as plasmoids bretonian roster. But again, that guy at least made his roster open to discussion and did not have his hands tied to match some stetichal criteria.

There is absolutely no guarantee that Cyanide will keep Khorne in BB2. They could very easily drop them, and given the slow path things change, we would be stuck with something badly designed in the Tabletop scene.

Digital version should follow Tabletop the best it can, as Fumbbl does.

Posted by Garion on 2015-01-24 13:16:33

not much right with it really. Blood Letters and Heralds are not consistent with eachother as Jimmy says. Blood Letters shouldn't be av7, st3 and shouldnt have agility access. linemen shouldnt have P access and their name is stupid.
pretty terrible effort all round really.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-24 13:16:53

Wow there's some uber trolling going on recently. JF is fully aware of the threads on the topic.

"I think there should be some solidarity between BBers instead of a dumb fumbbl vs naf vs cyanide thing." rivals playing up 760TV for troll of the year, and we're still in January! In the past you've been the biggest belittler of Cyanide and fairly vocal in Box vs Ranked debates.

Christer's comments have me worried that FUMBBL follows the NAF now. I'm not overly enthused with the NAF (an organisation based on non progression and Tourney play) have full reigns on BB.

To answer Roland, the main problems are this:

1. Positionals do not replicate the beasts they are based on (none are good, one in particular is ridiculous).
2. Severe limitations on making the roster meant severe restrictions and hal f way measures.
3. Khorne is all about killing, which probably isn't the best idea on a roster. So this one doesn't really meet the Khorne criteria. Yes, you'll never please everybody with Khorne, thus a stupid idea as the one new roster in that edition.
4. Deamons scream new neg trait (instability). The design crew were not allowed to add a new neg trait.]
5. With the fluff problems, allowing this roster damages the world immersion as a whole and sets a dangerous precedent (fruit roster here we come).

So what we have is a roster that plays quite well and is fun (in a conservative way) but is not really very Khorne and fails on the fluff aspects and damages the immersion feel as a whole.

These are the problems those who dislike it, have with it.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-24 13:56:33

Harvestmouse ubertroll! OK I will respond to you. I dislike what Cyanide have done with the game.. I don't dislike the playerbase... and even though Cyanide dropped the ball at least they are getting new blood into BB.
Box vs Ranked shouldn't be a thing, that's what I have always said. I think it would be neater to have one competitive division and think ranked could be rolled into league. Pickers think I'm trolling but I'm not. The only thing that I dislike about the Ranked/Box split that we have is Ranked only tournaments which I see no reason to deny Box entry to.
I think they ppl who made Khorne did nearly as good a job as they could have. No Regen on the heralds is the only bad thing really.

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-01-24 14:30:08

@harvestmouse:"So what we have is a roster that plays quite well and is fun (in a conservative way) but is not really very Khorne and fails on the fluff aspects and damages the immersion feel as a whole.

These are the problems those who dislike it, have with it."
Well put harverstmouse, you have expressed my opinion about Quorn.
No problem with funky & wacky rosters, as long as they stay in League division only. Daemons of Khorne less dangerous than a Chaos team is absolutely ridiculous.


@JimmyFantastic: "Box vs Ranked shouldn't be a thing, that's what I have always said. I think it would be neater to have one competitive division and think ranked could be rolled into league."
I absolutely agree, splitting the playerbase in a small community like this is very bad. With more people playing in Black Box less activations would fail.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-24 14:43:32

I would have loved to make the Khorne roster how I would want a Khorne Daemon team to be, but could u imagine how bad for the game a Khorne Daemon team that was way more brutal than Chaos would be?
And to answer the ubertrolls points in full-

1. The models match the stats if you look at the old letters and thirsters.
2. But they still came up with a flavourful team which isnt op
3. It's all Frenzy. That is the definition of Khorne. Of course they couldn't make it totally brutal as everyone cries like babies about Nurgz as it is.
4. No they don't. That is a mechanic that replaces them running away in massed battles, nothing to do with individuals on a pitch and also kinda covered by 2.
5. So you repeat point 1 and then a stupid strawman? Well done.

Posted by MattDakka on 2015-01-24 14:53:22

If you can't make a killing team killy don't make it at all.
By the way with negatraits such as daemonic instability and bloodlust the roster could be killy and quite balanced as well.
After all we know that Khorne worshippers fight amongst them to draw Khorne's attention.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-24 15:05:48

I don't think anyone likes Khorne more or would like to have seen them done "right" any more than me... but honestly I don't think they did bad. Not making them wasn't an option as Cyanide decided they were getting added one way or another. If you make them the killiest team ppl will riot - even though by fluff they should be. So they made them an all mens frenzy fun tier 2 team that actually adds something to the game.

Posted by LucaAnt on 2015-01-24 15:31:55

"I don't think anyone likes Khorne more or would like to have seen them done "right" any more than me" --- Of course you are wrong :D

Anyway, I believe that who created this roster did it with his feet, not with brain.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-24 15:35:43

I dunno Carlo, I think I would give you a run for your money on that one! I did get the highest BBR all times!

Posted by pythrr on 2015-01-24 15:58:16

PopKhorne

Can I reserve that team name now?

Posted by tmoila on 2015-01-24 17:08:56

The Khorne in Cyanide BB has one severe problem:

"Apothecary: Yes"

But no comment otherwise, seems rather balanced. Just that apo. Come on! They are Khorne!

Posted by pubstar on 2015-01-25 15:05:16

I don't understand all the hand-wringing over fluff, as if all the official rosters are perfectly fluffy.

Vampires can't bite opposing players, and can't score on Blood Lust.

Dwarves can hire wizards now.

And -it's possible I'm not all caught up on my fluff here- aren't Slann huge fat guys that use magic instead of physical prowess.

These are things that take a ding out of immersion, but are positive for the game. I would welcome a new roster that:

1. doesn't unbalance the game, as a bashier-than-Chaos team certainly would.
2. does something that no current roster does.

My sole issue with Khorne is that Norse are already about as much frenzy as I would want on a starting roster, but that's a minor point. I say bring on Khorne!

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 17:18:11

"I don't understand all the hand-wringing over fluff"

I don't think many do, or understand the importance of it. It's like going to your local that dilutes your beer. At what point does it not become a beer? When you reach that point, there's no going back, it's broken.

"Vampires can't bite opposing players, and can't score on Blood Lust." That's not a great example, as they don't really in Warhammer either. However the stats are relevant, which isn't the case for Khorne.

"Dwarves can hire wizards now." Yes this is a problem fluffwise, and is due to inducements and the impact of resurrection tournaments and NAF members of the BBRC. That's not to say that inducements aren't working well. Is it a reason to wash immersion away totally though?

"And -it's possible I'm not all caught up on my fluff here- aren't Slann huge fat guys that use magic instead of physical prowess." You're not up on your fluff. Slann were a race, that were replaced by Lizarmen to cash in on Jurassic Park boom. The Slann roster is a very good translation of the original roster that existed in the late 80s and early 90s.

"These are things that take a ding out of immersion, but are positive for the game." Immersion invented the game and held it until say 10 years ago. Now the game is swaying to competitive tournament gamers. However, why did they choose this game? Most likely is the well developed world it came from. If that becomes implausible what happens then? I doubt they'll stick it out to correct it, they'll move on to a better fantasy world and ruin that with their metagaming.

We go back to that original point. At what point is it not a beer anymore?

The main thing with this roster is the stats. No idea why JF thinks that bloodletters should be ST3. They come on 25mm bases and are around 8ft tall compared to a human and are a scaley demon. How on earth is that an ST3 player?

So you need the neg trait (which the roster beckons with open arms) to compensate for ST 4 letters and an ST 6 thirster.

Remember what a Thirster was based off. You remember that huge Balrog in LOTR, that thing that was around 40ft tall. That's what a Balrog was based off of.

A lot of you have no issue with the immersion, yet you chose this game. You chose it for a reason, even if you do not understand it that well. Leave those that do, to deal with it.

Posted by keggiemckill on 2015-01-25 17:26:41

Cyanide isn't Blood Bowl. They can't make a roster and implement it any more than any one of us. If the masses had a day then Claw Piling On wouldn't be an option.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 17:27:16

Look at the old 90s minis. Thirster was nearly Ogre sized and Letters were wiry.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 17:43:28

1990s figure size has no correlation to strength. This wasn't designed by Whatball.

They did have stats that do correspond to BB stats. That said, the letters were a 25mm base, substantial and a 40mm high figure, compared to a 32mm high standard human. Letters were described as being 8ft tall, and full of muscle. If an orc can be ST 4, then these are at least ST 4 too.

Again you are being misleading. Earlier demons were the same size as ogres yes....the same size as ogres today. Not of the time, and again it makes little difference. If we used your argument I could say that Letters are the same size as 80s ogres and should be ST 5.

Khorne was a bad choice, and not giving them S/G access even worse. Yet they couldn't do that because of the poor job they did with PO would have caused too much strife. So they could never have won with choosing Khorne. Still the only plus point of this roster was Galak finally nodding indirectly that yes CPOMB was a total cluster****.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 17:49:58

Bloodbowl =/= Warhammer. It draws many parallels but is a distinct universe.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 17:54:52

At least you understand that they couldn't possibly have made Khorne fit the fluff as you(and I) want them to as they would be the most brutal cpombing team out there and nearly everyone would hate it...

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 17:56:10

Cool, then don't take a race directly from Warhammer; simple as. Poor argument.

Khorne is an all out there, all or nothing killing roster. If you don't have the testicles to do that, don't choose the idea. Absolutely idiotic choice.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 18:08:30

I don't think it's such a poor argument. In Warhammer all the races are constantly at war, usually with multiple adversaries. In BB there is - to an extent at least - peace. Naturally this would weaken Khorne's power.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 18:11:35

"At least you understand that they couldn't possibly have made Khorne fit the fluff as you(and I) want them to as they would be the most brutal cpombing team out there and nearly everyone would hate it..."

Well that's just the problem. That's what it would have had to have been, so a ridiculously stupid choice as their one added roster. However, if Galak didn't become blinkered on the POMB combo and changed it, maybe it would have been different. Yet that's Galak, if questioned he becomes defensive. Maybe with taking so much crap over the years, most of use would. However he didn't listen and everybody bar a small group of you lose out because of it.

The fact Galak indirectly admitted this fault by not giving the Khorne linos GS access compounds both problems. So Marauders from pact are uber killers with CGS access but for Khorne it's 'let's tone it down guys and maybe throw a few balls with a pass access and paint some art instead'. Total bullshit.

Frenzy all round. ST 4 letters. ST 6 thirster and a neg trait to replicate instability does the job. However, as we have CPOMB Khorne was never a goer, and just showed Cyanides naivety and with the restrictions just a half assed bodge job. Let it die.

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 18:16:59

"I don't think it's such a poor argument. "

It's a poor argument because you are implying that you'll use Warhammer as you want and ignore it as you want. Therefore taking the bits that will defend your view but totally ignore the glaring points that are opposite. Siting when ever your view is called into question with:

'Bloodbowl =/= Warhammer. It draws many parallels but is a distinct universe.'

There is room for change of course, however the one thing you cannot change are the stats, they are law. Stats should stay the same (providing they can be translated).

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 18:19:50

That is literally what GW do, so yeah :)

Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-25 18:30:50

It's what Jervis Johnson does yes. However he has the strict rules of what is allowable and what isn't in his head. It's his world. We cannot take what he says and try to replicate what is in his head. However what you are suggesting with this roster definitely isn't. That's categorical, and I think you know that, thus the trolling.

Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-01-25 18:58:07

Well it's a good job that you categorically know what is in Jervis Johnson's head. You would never be the troll!

Posted by pubstar on 2015-01-25 19:44:17

@hm, re: fluff

You make some good points. You're absolutely right, I would never have picked up the game if it was called 'Extra Violent Football' and had no link to Warhammer. The fluff matters. And you're right that at some point it's not beer anymore.

I guess where we differ is where that line is drawn. That's fine, it's obviously subjective.

Posted by Jeffro on 2015-01-26 02:14:38

Khorne!!? When did I eat Khorne?!...