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2015-07-22 13:00:44
11 votes, rating 4.2
11 votes, rating 4.2
Another Box tweak...
Yes, I know, we don't do houserule, and so on...
But as a matter of fact, the changes on the box scheduler had a few unintended (IMHO) consequences. In particular, long lived teams like my Vault Tec Squad are doomed to face high TV differences when rebuilding. As an example, in my last three games, I collected 1.3 millions of inducements!
I was pretty vocal against it in the past, but I adjusted to that to the point I would say I almost enjoy it... :)
BUT, such effect has in case a huge impact on squishy team in rebuild mode. Yes, elves do good with wiz and so on, but playing with huge TV diff increase the attrition level and hence the AV7 races are bound to run with loners forever. A lot of squishy long lived teams have stopped playing in the Box, since the new scheduler, for example DukeTyrion's Wild Dragons.
After the blabla, what my proposed solution, then?
Simply allow the low TV teams to "cash-in", instead of buying inducements, the inducement money not spent in a game.
That would allow low AV teams to avoid extended games stretches with high loners number and should not be exploitable by min-max teams because they usually have an impressive amount of cash anyway.
Thoughts?
But as a matter of fact, the changes on the box scheduler had a few unintended (IMHO) consequences. In particular, long lived teams like my Vault Tec Squad are doomed to face high TV differences when rebuilding. As an example, in my last three games, I collected 1.3 millions of inducements!
I was pretty vocal against it in the past, but I adjusted to that to the point I would say I almost enjoy it... :)
BUT, such effect has in case a huge impact on squishy team in rebuild mode. Yes, elves do good with wiz and so on, but playing with huge TV diff increase the attrition level and hence the AV7 races are bound to run with loners forever. A lot of squishy long lived teams have stopped playing in the Box, since the new scheduler, for example DukeTyrion's Wild Dragons.
After the blabla, what my proposed solution, then?
Simply allow the low TV teams to "cash-in", instead of buying inducements, the inducement money not spent in a game.
That would allow low AV teams to avoid extended games stretches with high loners number and should not be exploitable by min-max teams because they usually have an impressive amount of cash anyway.
Thoughts?
Comments
Posted by koadah on 2015-07-22 13:10:40
It's a nice idea but it's a house rule and we must be pure!
Posted by Kondor on 2015-07-22 13:24:10
I like the idea but I doubt it will happen.
I do have a couple of questions though. When you play are there usually a high number of coaches activating? Do you routinely activate only one team?
My understanding is that the number of games played by a team is only a small part of the match-up equation. If you activate several teams then the best TV match-up will usually be drawn. However, if you activate in the American evening, you are lucky to get 4 coaches in the draw so get ready for a rough ride.
Anyway. Just my thoughts.
I do have a couple of questions though. When you play are there usually a high number of coaches activating? Do you routinely activate only one team?
My understanding is that the number of games played by a team is only a small part of the match-up equation. If you activate several teams then the best TV match-up will usually be drawn. However, if you activate in the American evening, you are lucky to get 4 coaches in the draw so get ready for a rough ride.
Anyway. Just my thoughts.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-07-22 13:27:13
Not sure I'm that keen on the "cash-in" idea. One thing I've noticed is that high TV box teams often are carrying injuries these days, certainly its more common than it used to be. I like this as it brings a bit more character to the game.
Why has this occurred. Well I'm not sure, but I suspect its a couple of factors at play. In part I think it's a response to new scheduler (max-max is the new black), but its also a way to preserve the treasury.
It feels like the suggested "cash-in" option might erode this a little as it removes the incentive to carry injuries to preserve cash.
Why has this occurred. Well I'm not sure, but I suspect its a couple of factors at play. In part I think it's a response to new scheduler (max-max is the new black), but its also a way to preserve the treasury.
It feels like the suggested "cash-in" option might erode this a little as it removes the incentive to carry injuries to preserve cash.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-07-22 13:30:02
It is an interesting idea though. Certainly discussion worthy.
Posted by Roland on 2015-07-22 13:52:33
1.3M inducements would be gold for any fling coach, where do I sign up?
Posted by OenarLod on 2015-07-22 14:01:08
@Kondor
Actually, I'm not complaining about high TV differences happening, nor I would to avoid it. On the contrary, many people, like me, play with a few teams only and know that such games can take place. It was just to find a way to avoid that such games become a deterrent for running long term squishy teams.
@Dunenzed
Yeah, noticed that too. But it's mainly on bash/hybrids teams. There could be the odd elf team running with a niggle wardancer or catcher, but I would gladly give them the option to have healthy rookies, something they don't have the luxury of given the high attrition factor.
Actually, I'm not complaining about high TV differences happening, nor I would to avoid it. On the contrary, many people, like me, play with a few teams only and know that such games can take place. It was just to find a way to avoid that such games become a deterrent for running long term squishy teams.
@Dunenzed
Yeah, noticed that too. But it's mainly on bash/hybrids teams. There could be the odd elf team running with a niggle wardancer or catcher, but I would gladly give them the option to have healthy rookies, something they don't have the luxury of given the high attrition factor.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-22 14:41:38
I don't understand why a house rule divison would be opposed to house rules.
Posted by Endzone on 2015-07-22 14:47:47
I agree is something could be done to help squishy teams avoid the downward loner spiral in the Box this would be good. Broadly speaking I can thin of two ways:
a) A change to the scheduler to make it less likely squishy teams face bashy team
b) A financial boost
The first of these option was discussed at length in a thread some months ago where it was suggested certain races should have a preference factor built into the scheduler making them more likely to be drawn together. In my opinion this was a good idea but I'm not sure what happened to it.
The second of these options you give an option for in your original post. Personally I don't much like the idea of 'cashing in' inducement money because the purpose of that money was to make the game more competitive. If we want to give a money boost to Box teams in respect of the higher attrition rate we should just do that. Option could include:
i) 'Box insurance' Teams receive an additional 10K winnings for each cas suffered
or
ii) 'Box inducement' All teams receive an extra 10K winnings every game
a) A change to the scheduler to make it less likely squishy teams face bashy team
b) A financial boost
The first of these option was discussed at length in a thread some months ago where it was suggested certain races should have a preference factor built into the scheduler making them more likely to be drawn together. In my opinion this was a good idea but I'm not sure what happened to it.
The second of these options you give an option for in your original post. Personally I don't much like the idea of 'cashing in' inducement money because the purpose of that money was to make the game more competitive. If we want to give a money boost to Box teams in respect of the higher attrition rate we should just do that. Option could include:
i) 'Box insurance' Teams receive an additional 10K winnings for each cas suffered
or
ii) 'Box inducement' All teams receive an extra 10K winnings every game
Posted by sonrises on 2015-07-22 14:51:16
you love inducements then?
join us in ALL STARS
http://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=9004&op=view
Starting today and you still can apply
;)
PD. sorry :D
join us in ALL STARS
http://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=9004&op=view
Starting today and you still can apply
;)
PD. sorry :D
Posted by OenarLod on 2015-07-22 15:00:57
@Endzone
I see your point on more straight methods to get a financial boost, but it will be a more generalized change that allow all teams to be healthy more easily.
Mine is more focused on "rebuilding phase" of long lived teams. I don't want to loose 50/100 games old elf teams because two superstar wardancers die and the coach miss the cash to buy new rookie ones or the stomach to play 10 games with a bunch of loners against high TV teams. While I find perfectly fine that an elf team in reasonable shape will suffer from attrition and miss from time to time the money to get full ranks.
But again, maybe it's just my obsession for the oxymoron that is "fluff in the Box".
I see your point on more straight methods to get a financial boost, but it will be a more generalized change that allow all teams to be healthy more easily.
Mine is more focused on "rebuilding phase" of long lived teams. I don't want to loose 50/100 games old elf teams because two superstar wardancers die and the coach miss the cash to buy new rookie ones or the stomach to play 10 games with a bunch of loners against high TV teams. While I find perfectly fine that an elf team in reasonable shape will suffer from attrition and miss from time to time the money to get full ranks.
But again, maybe it's just my obsession for the oxymoron that is "fluff in the Box".
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2015-07-22 15:07:25
You could spend 50k inducements to get 10k after the match. Something like that.
Posted by Calcium on 2015-07-22 16:18:27
I like the idea, I like Jimmy's modification more....
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-22 16:24:05
I don'T care about gold but I agree that the rule change that makes teams face off against vastly hgiher TV was never an improvement.
Posted by pythrr on 2015-07-22 16:33:36
eh, it's not only traditional squishy teams.
i can't remember the last time that the Lammer Heretics had 11 players....
i can't remember the last time that the Lammer Heretics had 11 players....
Posted by Calcium on 2015-07-22 17:13:34
Pythrr has a point, the Babes have spent ages @ mid TV due to kickings
Posted by Endzone on 2015-07-22 17:15:31
Bloodbowl was always designed with the idea of a League Commissioner overseeing the particular rules for any given league. If you play an official table-top tournament they each have different starting gold / star player / progression rules. I think CRP should be thought of as the basic 'core rules' but as with other leagues and tournaments R and B should be allowed to have division specific rules that complement them and promote the culture we want in those divisions. Making a tweak to the post match sequence (i.e. earning extra gold) seems like a reasonable place to make a change, after all from the point of being scheduled to the end of the game you would still be playing core Bloodbowl rules. We already have precedent here in terms of healing potions and other team rewards which are applied outside of the actual matches.
Posted by OenarLod on 2015-07-22 17:42:01
@pythrr and Calcium
Obviously I don't suggest to apply it to squishy only. All teams in rebuild would benefit, but I expect it to be more important for low AV expensive teams.
Obviously I don't suggest to apply it to squishy only. All teams in rebuild would benefit, but I expect it to be more important for low AV expensive teams.
Posted by SzieberthAdam on 2015-07-22 19:03:17
No need to cash in. To rebuild, buy mercenaries for the tons of inducement gold and field them instead the important regular players for some games.
Posted by Dunenzed on 2015-07-22 22:18:01
Another alternative that would provide extra cash could be introducing cash prizes for brawls. You get a well populated brawl draw and you're less likely to get a bad match up TV wise for an old team in rebuild mode than general box play.
Posted by huff on 2015-07-23 13:44:49
The only teams that need money in the Box are generally only those that you wouldn't mind playing against from a diversity standpoint, so I really don't see a big problem.
Even if you look at it in a hyperbolic scenario and gave all teams maximum treasury to work with, what would the evirement look like? It would certainly bring more diversity at high TV. There are numerous teams that basically already operate under this paradigm of unlimited treasury, and it's no wonder that they are the usual suspects in the Box. There would be the option to max-max as well but I don't see that being as big of an issue anymore because all teams would be able to do it, and in the end you'll still want to be TV efficient, so even 16 man roster with 8 RRs isn't something you're really worried about seeing, although it would be nice to face that 200TV Wood team with a 13 man squad.
Even under this hypothetical extreme scenario regarding treasury I can't see a problem, only a change to the meta in the box that I believe most would welcome.
So to make a full circle, boosting the amount of gold crowns a team can get one way or another sounds like a fine idea to me.
Even if you look at it in a hyperbolic scenario and gave all teams maximum treasury to work with, what would the evirement look like? It would certainly bring more diversity at high TV. There are numerous teams that basically already operate under this paradigm of unlimited treasury, and it's no wonder that they are the usual suspects in the Box. There would be the option to max-max as well but I don't see that being as big of an issue anymore because all teams would be able to do it, and in the end you'll still want to be TV efficient, so even 16 man roster with 8 RRs isn't something you're really worried about seeing, although it would be nice to face that 200TV Wood team with a 13 man squad.
Even under this hypothetical extreme scenario regarding treasury I can't see a problem, only a change to the meta in the box that I believe most would welcome.
So to make a full circle, boosting the amount of gold crowns a team can get one way or another sounds like a fine idea to me.
Posted by albinv on 2015-07-23 15:09:34
Merge it!