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2012-07-10 01:59:33
24 votes, rating 2.4
24 votes, rating 2.4
My design "fix" for [B]
Disclaimer, before you read on, I don't claim that the box is broken in its current state or in need of fixing, but if I had to do something different with the box this is what I would do:
One of my hobby's is Game Design, having a degree in Game Design but never being able to get a job in the bizz I now only get to flex my design muscle when I make my own project. And since I am very passionate about Blood Bowl, that's the game that often has to suffer my creative ideas.
So this is what I would do if I had to design the Box anew, knowing what we know today about the current box.
The problem with the current way of calculating Team Value is that all skills are treated equal when it comes to adding TV, and since we all know that not all skills are in fact equal skill prizing seems a good place to start tingeing.
Instead of having a fixed prize of 20k for a new skill I would make more than one prize group for the skills.
So that it might look something like this:
10K Skills
Git
Thick Skull
Foul Appearance
Very Long Legs
Pass Block
Pro
Shadowing
Nerves Of Steel
Diving Catch
Dump Off
Hail Mary Pass
Safe Throw
Multiple Block
20K Skills
All skills not mentioned in the other catacgories
30K Skills
Guard
Mighty Blow
Claw
This is just my version, and if Big C was to make this he should come up with this own formula, and thats the hole catch about this new Team Strength, it needs to be hidden!
This TS is a hidden value assign to your team by the system and the formula is only known by the creator.
If you don't know your current TS and you don't know for a fact how the TS is calculated its going to be a lot harder to min/max.
Also the beauty of system is that for most regular teams the TV will be very close to TS, hence we keep the current balance for the more standard teams out their.
This is also a good time to mention why I have not included Block and Dodge as skills that needs to cost more. The reason for this is that I fear it will wreck the balance, since some teams like Norse, Dwarfs and Amazone start with a lot of theses skills and would their for have a huge leg up TS wise. So I would not tinker with those skills.
What you can do, is make all sorts of small "rules" that adds more TS to a team, so if your hell bendt on making a team pay for the blodge combo, prize 10k TS for every blodger on the team. Or add an amount of TS if the teams has a player with a certain combination of skills (like Claw, Pion, Mblw ;) )
Rules like Reroll only count 30K towards TS would also be nice, maybe even with a twist that you always get charged at least 30K TS even if you have zero RR, that way a team running with no RR would be short changing themselves.
The Apho could also be prized at 30k TS if this was deemed needed.
And lots of other nice small simple rules that NO ONE knows about should be added.
The paring in the box would be the same, expect it would pair with a teams TS instead of TV.
Big C would not even have to announce it if he changed the formula, he could just do it and no one would notice.
For most people playing in the Box they would not even know they where now being paired with TS instead of TV.
It might even puch the roof a bit on when its becomes unbearable to play in the Box, and thus giving us more teams with high TV.
This was a lot of rambles from my side, I hope someone enjoys it, I had fun writing it. Creative input is welcome, I hope we can keep the comments on topic...
Oh ye as a side note, in my last blog Purplegoo challenged me to play a Slann team, so my next blog will be about how that is going, small spoiler, I can say that by some act of God I am 4/0/0 with them atm, but the Frogs keep dying on me, so I am havinng a hard time with the construction part.
When I have played around 15 matches ill blog about how I found the team
Cheers
Niebling
One of my hobby's is Game Design, having a degree in Game Design but never being able to get a job in the bizz I now only get to flex my design muscle when I make my own project. And since I am very passionate about Blood Bowl, that's the game that often has to suffer my creative ideas.
So this is what I would do if I had to design the Box anew, knowing what we know today about the current box.
The problem with the current way of calculating Team Value is that all skills are treated equal when it comes to adding TV, and since we all know that not all skills are in fact equal skill prizing seems a good place to start tingeing.
Instead of having a fixed prize of 20k for a new skill I would make more than one prize group for the skills.
So that it might look something like this:
10K Skills
Git
Thick Skull
Foul Appearance
Very Long Legs
Pass Block
Pro
Shadowing
Nerves Of Steel
Diving Catch
Dump Off
Hail Mary Pass
Safe Throw
Multiple Block
20K Skills
All skills not mentioned in the other catacgories
30K Skills
Guard
Mighty Blow
Claw
This is just my version, and if Big C was to make this he should come up with this own formula, and thats the hole catch about this new Team Strength, it needs to be hidden!
This TS is a hidden value assign to your team by the system and the formula is only known by the creator.
If you don't know your current TS and you don't know for a fact how the TS is calculated its going to be a lot harder to min/max.
Also the beauty of system is that for most regular teams the TV will be very close to TS, hence we keep the current balance for the more standard teams out their.
This is also a good time to mention why I have not included Block and Dodge as skills that needs to cost more. The reason for this is that I fear it will wreck the balance, since some teams like Norse, Dwarfs and Amazone start with a lot of theses skills and would their for have a huge leg up TS wise. So I would not tinker with those skills.
What you can do, is make all sorts of small "rules" that adds more TS to a team, so if your hell bendt on making a team pay for the blodge combo, prize 10k TS for every blodger on the team. Or add an amount of TS if the teams has a player with a certain combination of skills (like Claw, Pion, Mblw ;) )
Rules like Reroll only count 30K towards TS would also be nice, maybe even with a twist that you always get charged at least 30K TS even if you have zero RR, that way a team running with no RR would be short changing themselves.
The Apho could also be prized at 30k TS if this was deemed needed.
And lots of other nice small simple rules that NO ONE knows about should be added.
The paring in the box would be the same, expect it would pair with a teams TS instead of TV.
Big C would not even have to announce it if he changed the formula, he could just do it and no one would notice.
For most people playing in the Box they would not even know they where now being paired with TS instead of TV.
It might even puch the roof a bit on when its becomes unbearable to play in the Box, and thus giving us more teams with high TV.
This was a lot of rambles from my side, I hope someone enjoys it, I had fun writing it. Creative input is welcome, I hope we can keep the comments on topic...
Oh ye as a side note, in my last blog Purplegoo challenged me to play a Slann team, so my next blog will be about how that is going, small spoiler, I can say that by some act of God I am 4/0/0 with them atm, but the Frogs keep dying on me, so I am havinng a hard time with the construction part.
When I have played around 15 matches ill blog about how I found the team
Cheers
Niebling
Comments
Posted by Wreckage on 2012-07-10 08:03:09
So, I take it that you want to hand out inducements for stronger team builds?
Posted by Wreckage on 2012-07-10 08:33:25
Quite frankly I'm not overly enthusiastic about most suggestions. To hide a weak formular rather than fix it seems just like an easy way out. The flaws will eventually be localised and the wrong people will profit from it.
Two heads is a first skill choice on some players. Handing out skills for 10 instead of 20 k would be a massive price reduction, considering that skills are already quite cheap in the system. (Unless you are focused on stunties as your main player type.)
Pro, NoS, Shadowing, Diving Catch, Hail Mary Pass, Safe Throw and Multi Block are all fairly decent skills and some of them could be rather easily exploited.
No objections to VLL, FA, Thick Skull and Pass Block, however you did forget to include Sneaky Gits.
Then, as nice as the 30k list is, I'm not entire sure if the solution to not include the two strongest skills, block and dodge is sufficient. Neither did you seem to consider piling on worthy of a 30k skill, therefore I assume I can add this in my own blog under 'Claw is broken' - theories?
Two heads is a first skill choice on some players. Handing out skills for 10 instead of 20 k would be a massive price reduction, considering that skills are already quite cheap in the system. (Unless you are focused on stunties as your main player type.)
Pro, NoS, Shadowing, Diving Catch, Hail Mary Pass, Safe Throw and Multi Block are all fairly decent skills and some of them could be rather easily exploited.
No objections to VLL, FA, Thick Skull and Pass Block, however you did forget to include Sneaky Gits.
Then, as nice as the 30k list is, I'm not entire sure if the solution to not include the two strongest skills, block and dodge is sufficient. Neither did you seem to consider piling on worthy of a 30k skill, therefore I assume I can add this in my own blog under 'Claw is broken' - theories?
Posted by xcver on 2012-07-10 08:44:50
Why not implement the LRB7 suggestions, which are:
1. Sneaky Git works like guard on fouling assists on top
2. Right stuff prevents tackle from negating dodge for Pow (still relevant for dodging)
3. +1 to the AV roll for a foul if the fouler is not in an opposing tacklezone
4. A player cannot use his skills that modify armor or injury roles when using Piling On
5. Human Blitzers cost -10k
6. Human Catchers get +1AV (no price change)
7. MA6 for snotlings (no price change)
8. Bank rules at 150k (money in the bank doesn't count towards TV but cannot be used for inducements)
9. +10k for Tomb Guardians they gain AV8, remove Decay and get Break Tackle
still does not remove min/maxing, but weakens Piling On, strengthens Humans, Khemri, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings (note that Skinks do not have Right Stuff). Also Ups fouling.
1. Sneaky Git works like guard on fouling assists on top
2. Right stuff prevents tackle from negating dodge for Pow (still relevant for dodging)
3. +1 to the AV roll for a foul if the fouler is not in an opposing tacklezone
4. A player cannot use his skills that modify armor or injury roles when using Piling On
5. Human Blitzers cost -10k
6. Human Catchers get +1AV (no price change)
7. MA6 for snotlings (no price change)
8. Bank rules at 150k (money in the bank doesn't count towards TV but cannot be used for inducements)
9. +10k for Tomb Guardians they gain AV8, remove Decay and get Break Tackle
still does not remove min/maxing, but weakens Piling On, strengthens Humans, Khemri, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings (note that Skinks do not have Right Stuff). Also Ups fouling.
Posted by The_Murker on 2012-07-10 11:55:35
I enjoyed the original post. Keep it up.
Posted by The_Murker on 2012-07-10 12:00:32
One key point is the removal of the transparency in the system. It would be harder to game, especially if it were subject to change. The drawback would be people lamenting it was broken and unfair when they got stomped repeatedly, like I did 2 months after I joined. At least with transparency I KNOW I find it unfair, and can make an educated decision to accept it a play anyway. the Human League Premiership helped alot with that. But it is definatly worth another round of discussion. I've heard people to ask that CR be done away with altogether. Interesting.
Posted by Niebling on 2012-07-10 14:02:10
@Wreckage I am not sure I understand what you meen about inducement for stronger team build, could you elaborate?
About my skill list, it was just meant as an example, I think I even used an old skill list as base hence I forgot to add git.
2head should be a 20K skill agreed, but the rest? how many teams stack up on any of those skills, and do you really think that people would start just because they where cheaper? I don't :)
I did not add Piling on since I did not want to add all 3 bash skills, to start I had picked Piling on over Mblw, but since the build order for CLAWPOW players seems to be Block, Mblw, Claw I decided it would have the right effect this way around. Also who is scared of a Claw Piling on player without Mblw? ;)
@xcver the idea is not the implement a new rule set, that's a hole other story, the design is only a change on how match making in the box is handled. So in theory this is something that could be done today, while a new rule set would have to becomme official before it would be implemented on fumbbl.
It would be nice with the new L where we can try out some of theses rules.
@The_Murker thank you mate, glad someone did :)
About lack of transparency, this ofc does not have to be done, the system could be made with full disclosure and still work, I just think it would benefit more if it was secret and discourage some of the min/max, because when you cant be 100% sure of the effect its not really min/max its just guess work ;)
About my skill list, it was just meant as an example, I think I even used an old skill list as base hence I forgot to add git.
2head should be a 20K skill agreed, but the rest? how many teams stack up on any of those skills, and do you really think that people would start just because they where cheaper? I don't :)
I did not add Piling on since I did not want to add all 3 bash skills, to start I had picked Piling on over Mblw, but since the build order for CLAWPOW players seems to be Block, Mblw, Claw I decided it would have the right effect this way around. Also who is scared of a Claw Piling on player without Mblw? ;)
@xcver the idea is not the implement a new rule set, that's a hole other story, the design is only a change on how match making in the box is handled. So in theory this is something that could be done today, while a new rule set would have to becomme official before it would be implemented on fumbbl.
It would be nice with the new L where we can try out some of theses rules.
@The_Murker thank you mate, glad someone did :)
About lack of transparency, this ofc does not have to be done, the system could be made with full disclosure and still work, I just think it would benefit more if it was secret and discourage some of the min/max, because when you cant be 100% sure of the effect its not really min/max its just guess work ;)
Posted by Garion on 2012-07-10 15:08:58
xcver - they are not lrb7 suggestions, they are Plasmoids house rules. Nothing more.
Posted by SillySod on 2012-07-10 15:13:10
So... team strength :)
I'm a big fan of team strength but I have three issues with this implementation:
1 - hiding the calculation makes it harder to game but it also makes it more likely that you will have a flawed system. A hidden system is also less satisfying: partly because people enjoy trying to game it but I suspect that it would bother other people too. Imagine all the forum threads saying "I don't know what the formula is but its clearly flawed".
2 - Your suggested system is relatively simple... I hope that's just a sample version to convey the idea. The actual calculation would/should end up being relatively complex.
3 - A skill is worth more than 20k. One of the big flaws of team value is that 20k seems "about right" but actually its pretty far off the mark. Most top end skills are worth about 30k (mind you, claw on its own is not) but they are particularly valuable when skill density is low. For example, guard on a rookie human team is worth about 50k. Something to consider.
I'm a big fan of team strength but I have three issues with this implementation:
1 - hiding the calculation makes it harder to game but it also makes it more likely that you will have a flawed system. A hidden system is also less satisfying: partly because people enjoy trying to game it but I suspect that it would bother other people too. Imagine all the forum threads saying "I don't know what the formula is but its clearly flawed".
2 - Your suggested system is relatively simple... I hope that's just a sample version to convey the idea. The actual calculation would/should end up being relatively complex.
3 - A skill is worth more than 20k. One of the big flaws of team value is that 20k seems "about right" but actually its pretty far off the mark. Most top end skills are worth about 30k (mind you, claw on its own is not) but they are particularly valuable when skill density is low. For example, guard on a rookie human team is worth about 50k. Something to consider.
Posted by Wreckage on 2012-07-10 15:18:49
I have tried to respond but it's difficult without sounding too cocky. If you don't mind I'll do anyways.
Posted by xcver on 2012-07-10 15:24:33
well there cannot be another LRB since the BBRC has been disbanded....since they are coming from two former BBRC members and plasmoid I reckon they are closest to a new LRB than anything else on the radar...
About the price changes in terms of blackbox calculation...wouldn't it make sense to also consider if a skill is a doubles skill on a player? That should add appropriately. While block on a lineman is strong, block on a beast of nurgle for instance is stronger. Which also places Leader a bit higher than it is now.
About the price changes in terms of blackbox calculation...wouldn't it make sense to also consider if a skill is a doubles skill on a player? That should add appropriately. While block on a lineman is strong, block on a beast of nurgle for instance is stronger. Which also places Leader a bit higher than it is now.
Posted by PsyPhiGrad on 2012-07-10 15:52:56
Scrap kludgy #4 and replace it with Piling On is illegal. Treat it just like you would a foul. If you roll doubles in either armour roll or re-rolled injury roll, you player is ejected.
The skill finally gets a risk equal to its reward. Rather than allowing the player to hide safely on the ground.
Lastly, I woulnd't rely on the folks who gave us this mess to fix it. They bodged it pretty severely on several fronts. There are much better game designers out there who should be listen to.
The skill finally gets a risk equal to its reward. Rather than allowing the player to hide safely on the ground.
Lastly, I woulnd't rely on the folks who gave us this mess to fix it. They bodged it pretty severely on several fronts. There are much better game designers out there who should be listen to.
Posted by Niebling on 2012-07-10 16:02:15
@Wreckage feel free to sound cocky :)
Doubles should get the normal +10K prize tag, thats why its not mentioned. Also stats could be change if u like, an ag+ is worth more to an ag4 player than an ag2 or ma+ is worth more to an ma6 player than an ma4 player for example. But u dont have to include it.
I did not include leader as a 30k skill because I wanted to dump RR worth to 30k so would make no sense to take leader then, might even dump it to 10k
I dont see why the system has to be complex, doing the reswamp of the TS in the database will requrie work, but the system as a hole is simple
Doubles should get the normal +10K prize tag, thats why its not mentioned. Also stats could be change if u like, an ag+ is worth more to an ag4 player than an ag2 or ma+ is worth more to an ma6 player than an ma4 player for example. But u dont have to include it.
I did not include leader as a 30k skill because I wanted to dump RR worth to 30k so would make no sense to take leader then, might even dump it to 10k
I dont see why the system has to be complex, doing the reswamp of the TS in the database will requrie work, but the system as a hole is simple
Posted by bghandras on 2012-07-10 16:13:18
If there is no transparency then how do people know the box is fixed? How would a lack of perceived action stop the storm of today?
Posted by The_Murker on 2012-07-10 17:24:10
Why does everything have to be a storm. Or a storm in a teacup. The sky isn't falling. People are just exchanging alot of ideas at once. It involves a bit of reading is all. Which is of course voluntary, of course.
Posted by Niebling on 2012-07-10 17:57:29
As The_Murker says, not trying to fix anything. Since as mention I dont think anything is broken.
This is just how you could also handle it :)
This is just how you could also handle it :)
Posted by bghandras on 2012-07-10 17:57:52
And arguing on semantic clearly helps doing so. :)
Posted by NSKawa on 2012-07-12 05:28:16
erm :) - stats or etc should have - from tw ! :D