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2013-10-21 14:48:23
14 votes, rating 4.7
14 votes, rating 4.7
100 Games of Blackbox
So, I keep reading this stuff about Blackbox, I'm sure I don't have to repeat to you. I started playing in the division last year and have now completed 100 games, so I thought it might be time for a fact check.
I played mostly Dark Elves, Humans, Norse and Underworld in the range between 1000k and 1500k TV. I did not really intend to keep it that way (well, with the Norse I did for some time) but the teams just repeatedly lost players so I didn't get up to the serious CPOMB range yet. I keep trying!
So, goes the saying, people who play Blackbox do not care about their opponent's fun. Fact check: Hardly true. For the vast majority of games my opponents were quite nice. Some were more chatty than others, very few did not write a word, but most were friendly in chat and played fairly. I played one notorious min-max coach twice, he was nice enough in chat and took it in good humour when I out-bashed him with my Norse. One well respected coach was a bit cross in the beginning when faced with my Norse, which were pretty nasty at around TV 1400, but when I kept a good spirit and he saw that I wasn't simply out to destroy his Skaven, but rather to play the ball, he warmed up.
So, goes the saying, at low TV Blackbox is choke-full of min-maxed killer squads out to prey on the Rookie teams. Fact check: Hardly true. I played one notorious min-max team twice, out of 100 games, that's it. Won once, lost once but survived. I certainly did encounter a lot of TV-optimized teams, like a Dwarf team with only one reroll and no Apoth or other teams that did not use all of their positionals. I've been doing the same thing with my Norse. For the most part, that's just a logical consequence of the matchmaking system, not a malicious effort to screw Rookie teams and coaches over.
So, goes the saying, Blackbox lacks diversity. Fact check: Hardly true, at least up to TV 1500k. Here's the spread of opponents I played among my 100 Blackbox games. Leaning heavily towards the bashy side for sure, but lots of different teams (and builds) out there.
14 games: Orc
9 games: Chaos
7 games: Chaos Dwarf, Khemri, Necromantic
6 games: Lizardman
5 games: Chaos Pact, Dark Elf, Dwarf
4 games: Human, Nurgle, Undead, Underworld
3 games: Amazon, Elf, Goblin
2 games: Skaven, Slann, Wood Elf
1 game: High Elf, Norse, Ogre, Vampire
Conclusion: I can't really say about the high TV range, but in the 1000k-1500k range, Blackbox is not half as bad as they say. Yes, it's bashy, yes, it's TV-optimized, but if you know that you can come prepared to the fight. For the most part, I find the strategic challenge of building a box-suited team quite interesting. Of course, you must not grow too attached to a team or player, but I found that to be a good exercise in practicing my Fumbbl Zen. And I much prefer the random draw to sitting around on Gamefinder looking at team after team, not even getting a match-up for Wood Elves in European evening hours. Yay Blackbox! Also, the Human League has some great spirit and community going on.
I played mostly Dark Elves, Humans, Norse and Underworld in the range between 1000k and 1500k TV. I did not really intend to keep it that way (well, with the Norse I did for some time) but the teams just repeatedly lost players so I didn't get up to the serious CPOMB range yet. I keep trying!
So, goes the saying, people who play Blackbox do not care about their opponent's fun. Fact check: Hardly true. For the vast majority of games my opponents were quite nice. Some were more chatty than others, very few did not write a word, but most were friendly in chat and played fairly. I played one notorious min-max coach twice, he was nice enough in chat and took it in good humour when I out-bashed him with my Norse. One well respected coach was a bit cross in the beginning when faced with my Norse, which were pretty nasty at around TV 1400, but when I kept a good spirit and he saw that I wasn't simply out to destroy his Skaven, but rather to play the ball, he warmed up.
So, goes the saying, at low TV Blackbox is choke-full of min-maxed killer squads out to prey on the Rookie teams. Fact check: Hardly true. I played one notorious min-max team twice, out of 100 games, that's it. Won once, lost once but survived. I certainly did encounter a lot of TV-optimized teams, like a Dwarf team with only one reroll and no Apoth or other teams that did not use all of their positionals. I've been doing the same thing with my Norse. For the most part, that's just a logical consequence of the matchmaking system, not a malicious effort to screw Rookie teams and coaches over.
So, goes the saying, Blackbox lacks diversity. Fact check: Hardly true, at least up to TV 1500k. Here's the spread of opponents I played among my 100 Blackbox games. Leaning heavily towards the bashy side for sure, but lots of different teams (and builds) out there.
14 games: Orc
9 games: Chaos
7 games: Chaos Dwarf, Khemri, Necromantic
6 games: Lizardman
5 games: Chaos Pact, Dark Elf, Dwarf
4 games: Human, Nurgle, Undead, Underworld
3 games: Amazon, Elf, Goblin
2 games: Skaven, Slann, Wood Elf
1 game: High Elf, Norse, Ogre, Vampire
Conclusion: I can't really say about the high TV range, but in the 1000k-1500k range, Blackbox is not half as bad as they say. Yes, it's bashy, yes, it's TV-optimized, but if you know that you can come prepared to the fight. For the most part, I find the strategic challenge of building a box-suited team quite interesting. Of course, you must not grow too attached to a team or player, but I found that to be a good exercise in practicing my Fumbbl Zen. And I much prefer the random draw to sitting around on Gamefinder looking at team after team, not even getting a match-up for Wood Elves in European evening hours. Yay Blackbox! Also, the Human League has some great spirit and community going on.
Comments
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-10-21 15:36:39
"Blackbox is not half as bad as they say."
"So, goes the saying, at low TV Blackbox is choke-full of min-maxed killer squads out to prey on the Rookie teams."
This is what they say.
"So, goes the saying, at low TV Blackbox is choke-full of min-maxed killer squads out to prey on the Rookie teams."
This is what they say.
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-21 15:57:18
I do not understand you, harvestmouse. As I wrote, it is what they say but it is not what I have encountered. What are you trying to say?
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-10-21 16:10:18
Well you said yourself "I did not really intend to keep it that way (well, with the Norse I did for some time) but the teams just repeatedly lost players so I didn't get up to the serious CPOMB range yet."
Which means 1 of 2 things.
1. It actually is severe and you couldn't get out of the bracket.
2. You were in fact minmaxing yourself (which you said was the case with your norse) and part of the problem that people say is the problem.
I'm pretty sure smallkosp find very few problems with low TV box.
Which means 1 of 2 things.
1. It actually is severe and you couldn't get out of the bracket.
2. You were in fact minmaxing yourself (which you said was the case with your norse) and part of the problem that people say is the problem.
I'm pretty sure smallkosp find very few problems with low TV box.
Posted by Topper on 2013-10-21 17:17:59
@Harvestmouse I have to understand why you´re such a "basher" on the Box?
I mean it can´t be from personal experience - 1 game, is not a lot to measure statistics on ;)
This man have played 100 games in the Box - and if you look at his teams - do you find them to be seriously Min/Maxing? He says it´s a different format than ranked where optimizing teams (and not taking advantage of newbies) is the major focus. Between the lines your response is: It is hard for the doer to see the wrong in his deeds - and from your pre-determined mind, which is based not on actual self experience but alone on hearsay and a focus on those cases that do support your view (I assume), you dismiss his (valid) arguments by cooking it down to two possible points. Points that in my view - and I have played alot of Box too - simply isn´t true.
If I were you, I´d try the Box (for I don´t know.. 10 games or so) and then, if you still find it to be such an issue, you now have at least some kind of validation to your arguments. People playing the box aren´t an evil breed of sadistic guys and predators praying on the unfortunate and the green. They play to have fun and competitive games - just like those playing (R)anked.
The focus is different yes - but no less fun nor challenging.
I mean it can´t be from personal experience - 1 game, is not a lot to measure statistics on ;)
This man have played 100 games in the Box - and if you look at his teams - do you find them to be seriously Min/Maxing? He says it´s a different format than ranked where optimizing teams (and not taking advantage of newbies) is the major focus. Between the lines your response is: It is hard for the doer to see the wrong in his deeds - and from your pre-determined mind, which is based not on actual self experience but alone on hearsay and a focus on those cases that do support your view (I assume), you dismiss his (valid) arguments by cooking it down to two possible points. Points that in my view - and I have played alot of Box too - simply isn´t true.
If I were you, I´d try the Box (for I don´t know.. 10 games or so) and then, if you still find it to be such an issue, you now have at least some kind of validation to your arguments. People playing the box aren´t an evil breed of sadistic guys and predators praying on the unfortunate and the green. They play to have fun and competitive games - just like those playing (R)anked.
The focus is different yes - but no less fun nor challenging.
Posted by Wizfall on 2013-10-21 18:28:09
Box is more bashy.
However it's mainly much more deadly because not only you have more bashy teams but also that bashy B teams are more bashy that bashy R teams and that you can't schedule "recuperation" match.
Also the CR of coaches is much higher in B (it's obvious when you look for games to spectate, plenty of legend/super star, very few rookies/veteran/experienced), that makes B even more deadly because bashy teams in the hand of good coaches...
For the most part B is not much more mimmaxed that rank though (it's more minmaxed but it's acceptable). One should be ready to play 1/15 an unfair games against a really lame team though(heavy CPOMB or minmax zons).
Kinds of teams/coaches that make people rage/leave the box but no solution to that unfortunately.
Otherwise my 176 games in the Box only low TV (1000-1400) :
17 games: Necro, HUMANS (hehe)
14 games: Chaos Pact
12 games: Dwarves
11 games: Chaos
10 games: Orcs, Chaos Dwarves
9 games: Nurgle
8 games: Lizards, Wood Elf
7 games: Skaven
5 games: Amazons, Elf, Undead, Khemri
4 games: Slanns, Vampire
3 games: Goblins, halflings, high elf, Norse
However it's mainly much more deadly because not only you have more bashy teams but also that bashy B teams are more bashy that bashy R teams and that you can't schedule "recuperation" match.
Also the CR of coaches is much higher in B (it's obvious when you look for games to spectate, plenty of legend/super star, very few rookies/veteran/experienced), that makes B even more deadly because bashy teams in the hand of good coaches...
For the most part B is not much more mimmaxed that rank though (it's more minmaxed but it's acceptable). One should be ready to play 1/15 an unfair games against a really lame team though(heavy CPOMB or minmax zons).
Kinds of teams/coaches that make people rage/leave the box but no solution to that unfortunately.
Otherwise my 176 games in the Box only low TV (1000-1400) :
17 games: Necro, HUMANS (hehe)
14 games: Chaos Pact
12 games: Dwarves
11 games: Chaos
10 games: Orcs, Chaos Dwarves
9 games: Nurgle
8 games: Lizards, Wood Elf
7 games: Skaven
5 games: Amazons, Elf, Undead, Khemri
4 games: Slanns, Vampire
3 games: Goblins, halflings, high elf, Norse
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-10-21 18:29:05
The mix of teams in the box is in my experience about the same on all TVs these days, the offenders just vary:
1000k-1300k: minmax crap like pact and solid low TV teams like lizards.
1300k-1600k: Chaos dwarfs ( and lots of other sweetspotters :) )
1600+: clawplomb spam
But yeah actually playing there I have found to get plenty of games against different teams and even when you sometimes meet an 'offender' the game can often be fine too as most of the coaches are ok dudes.
I also like ranked (when I can get a game :P )
And league is great.
Hail Fumbbl! :)
1000k-1300k: minmax crap like pact and solid low TV teams like lizards.
1300k-1600k: Chaos dwarfs ( and lots of other sweetspotters :) )
1600+: clawplomb spam
But yeah actually playing there I have found to get plenty of games against different teams and even when you sometimes meet an 'offender' the game can often be fine too as most of the coaches are ok dudes.
I also like ranked (when I can get a game :P )
And league is great.
Hail Fumbbl! :)
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-10-21 18:31:35
I've had that said about me before. I am not definitely not 'such a basher' of the box. But I will point it out when someone label's potato a truffle. The box is what it is. No more, no less. Great in some aspects, however it's an incredibly warped aspect of BB. The longer we go on though, the less that is obvious as the coaches attitudes change, and those unwilling to change disappear.
I don't need to play any games in box to know that. Very few people look at the bigger picture of FUMBBL as I, and are more aware of what teams and coaches are out there. I have seen the good and the bad points of it, and it certainly doesn't suit me and I won't play there. This isn't to say I wouldn't recommend it to coaches it would suit however.
You can't dismiss valid points, no matter whether you've experienced it yourself or not. Whether he's minmaxing or not? Nearly all of you are to a degree. The division demands it.
I don't need to play any games in box to know that. Very few people look at the bigger picture of FUMBBL as I, and are more aware of what teams and coaches are out there. I have seen the good and the bad points of it, and it certainly doesn't suit me and I won't play there. This isn't to say I wouldn't recommend it to coaches it would suit however.
You can't dismiss valid points, no matter whether you've experienced it yourself or not. Whether he's minmaxing or not? Nearly all of you are to a degree. The division demands it.
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-21 18:59:53
Harvestmouse, whereever did I label it a truffle? Look at my blog post, it's all in there, you even quoted it, for God's sake! The only thing I said was, these potatoes are not rotten at all, I have eaten one hundred of these potatoes and for the most part they tasted pretty good. Yay potatoes! What are you upset about?
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-21 19:06:33
Overhamsteren, League is great, no debate there! I have much more League than Box matches. ;)
Posted by sann0638 on 2013-10-21 19:27:58
+1 to Verminardo. 120 Box games, almost all pleasant opponents, only a few clawpomb, and never had a team decimated. Don't think I minmax at all, it's all good.
Posted by koadah on 2013-10-21 19:39:48
Nice blog. In reality it does eventually fall down on the diversity issue.
The top five rows of your diversity list make up a lot more games than the bottom four.
That still seems pretty diverse when you get started but after a while it seems that you haven't played some races for ages.
Go Box
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/leaders.html?sprintId=96
The top five rows of your diversity list make up a lot more games than the bottom four.
That still seems pretty diverse when you get started but after a while it seems that you haven't played some races for ages.
Go Box
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/leaders.html?sprintId=96
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-10-21 21:02:41
I'm not upset. I just want to clarify I don't bash box just because it's box, it's a critical overview. I believe there are problems with balance, even though you are enjoying yourself. All that said, yeah maybe I've come over too strong on this blog.
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-22 09:41:00
One more point concerning the "offenders" (as Overhamsteren called them). Blood Bowl has a tactical component, on the pitch, and it has a strategic component, which is team building. Naturally the modus of matchmaking affects team building strategies, and it is not a design goals for all match-ups to be perfectly balanced. Even in round robin league play for which the rules are designed, it is part of the game that most match-ups will in fact be unbalanced. It even adds to the tactical challenge, playing it safe when the match-up is in your favour, taking chances when it isn't. I do agree that in Black Box, due to its "warped" nature (as harvestmouse put it), there are certain cases of imbalance that go way beyond what is intended and fun. Just as an aside, I would be all for case-by-case judgments to keep this in check. However, one point I wanted to stress in this blog is, yes, it does happen, but no, it does not happen nearly as often as you would think when you read the forums.