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2013-10-29 10:40:26
6 votes, rating 5
6 votes, rating 5
The Dark Elf Struggle
So Dark Elves are my favourite race. I just love them. Their play style is so very elegant, especially on defence. Minimalistic. Patient. Move less. Stay put. Don't commit. Hit back. Dodge. Stay alive. When done properly, it is a joy to watch. Not as spectacular as Wood Elves or Skaven. But beautiful. Relying less on luck and more on skill. Which is also probably why I am struggling with them in the competitive divisions. ;)
Dark Elves are the only TT team I own. On Fumbbl, I played a lot of Dark Elves in League. 35/10/7 games and 2 titles in a private league with bash nerfs and not the hardest competition. 5/7/5 games in the more competitive DFFL. I used to play some Dark Elves in Ranked back in LRB4 but building them up was hard as you couldn't buy many positionals initially. That improved in CRP and I started some Dark Elf teams in Blackbox. With the first one my team building wasn't good. With the second, I suffered some unlucky casualties. With the third, I went with a GoT theme and got a POMB Witch early on, so I thought, this time, this time. Still they were only on a balanced record but I thought, wait until you get them blodged up. Well I got them blodged up now and the record is 8/7/8. Not too bad in Blackbox but not much improved either.
I entered the team into the current B Minors but lost in 1st round to Zarathustra's Dwarves. It was a close match and I was happy with my coaching overall, can't see any major mistakes that I made. Lucky 1st half, unlucky 2nd half, went to OT with 8 elves vs. 11 dwarves and lost the coin toss. This is how many of my DE games feel, like the close ones just don't seem to go in my favour, but probably I'm just kidding myself. The Rankings page informs me that my overall win percentage with Darkies is 48%, as opposed to 55% overall.
I've been contemplating giving it up. Focussing on other teams on Fumbbl. Buying another team for TT. Some less sophisticated roster. Wood Elves, for instance, or Skaven. But that would be the easy, the seductive way. So I'll keep at it. Likely I'll never be an accomplished Dark Elf coach but maybe I can get that win percentage above 50%...
Dark Elves are the only TT team I own. On Fumbbl, I played a lot of Dark Elves in League. 35/10/7 games and 2 titles in a private league with bash nerfs and not the hardest competition. 5/7/5 games in the more competitive DFFL. I used to play some Dark Elves in Ranked back in LRB4 but building them up was hard as you couldn't buy many positionals initially. That improved in CRP and I started some Dark Elf teams in Blackbox. With the first one my team building wasn't good. With the second, I suffered some unlucky casualties. With the third, I went with a GoT theme and got a POMB Witch early on, so I thought, this time, this time. Still they were only on a balanced record but I thought, wait until you get them blodged up. Well I got them blodged up now and the record is 8/7/8. Not too bad in Blackbox but not much improved either.
I entered the team into the current B Minors but lost in 1st round to Zarathustra's Dwarves. It was a close match and I was happy with my coaching overall, can't see any major mistakes that I made. Lucky 1st half, unlucky 2nd half, went to OT with 8 elves vs. 11 dwarves and lost the coin toss. This is how many of my DE games feel, like the close ones just don't seem to go in my favour, but probably I'm just kidding myself. The Rankings page informs me that my overall win percentage with Darkies is 48%, as opposed to 55% overall.
I've been contemplating giving it up. Focussing on other teams on Fumbbl. Buying another team for TT. Some less sophisticated roster. Wood Elves, for instance, or Skaven. But that would be the easy, the seductive way. So I'll keep at it. Likely I'll never be an accomplished Dark Elf coach but maybe I can get that win percentage above 50%...
Comments
Posted by dadoz on 2013-10-29 10:52:35
I'm having a similar experience with my Darkies. They look really good on paper but I can't seem to hold off caging bashers from scoring. Lately I've been having a lot of draws due to that, as I just cant defend them from scoring once it's their drive.
On the offense I usually don't have much problems. I can both cage my way through and pass my way in.
I've gone for some extra guard on a few blitzers, but I doubt that it will change much. Perhaps more DivingTackle SideStep..
Still I love playing them, as you say changing to some other team is the easy way out =)
On the offense I usually don't have much problems. I can both cage my way through and pass my way in.
I've gone for some extra guard on a few blitzers, but I doubt that it will change much. Perhaps more DivingTackle SideStep..
Still I love playing them, as you say changing to some other team is the easy way out =)
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-10-29 11:07:27
I wouldn't say wood elves take less skill or are less sophisticated (unless that was fluff based smack talk, which I approve of).
I think having a POMB witch is like coffee icecream; enjoy it, it won't last long and it maybe a long time until you get another one.
I also think there are several ways you can take your Darkies, particularly in CRP with wrestle. Eventually they'll end up similar if you can keep your team together.
Personally I like to mix up my dodge and block as first skills. However in box, where supposedly there is less tackle wandering around, this may mean you should go heavier on dodge. I'm a big hater of man marking as a general policy for sub av9 players, particularly on 70k plus players like DEs.
So you get some hitters anyway, with 4 blitzers, and you'll be putting block or wrestle on your witches. So maybe dodge as a priority on the linos instead of wrestle or block could be the way to go with them.
All said, I don't think you should give up with them, here or TT. But I love all the races, and could never pick a favourite (bar pygmies). Experiment, use others and comeback to them when your mood isn't so dark (or maybe goes back to being dark!)
I think having a POMB witch is like coffee icecream; enjoy it, it won't last long and it maybe a long time until you get another one.
I also think there are several ways you can take your Darkies, particularly in CRP with wrestle. Eventually they'll end up similar if you can keep your team together.
Personally I like to mix up my dodge and block as first skills. However in box, where supposedly there is less tackle wandering around, this may mean you should go heavier on dodge. I'm a big hater of man marking as a general policy for sub av9 players, particularly on 70k plus players like DEs.
So you get some hitters anyway, with 4 blitzers, and you'll be putting block or wrestle on your witches. So maybe dodge as a priority on the linos instead of wrestle or block could be the way to go with them.
All said, I don't think you should give up with them, here or TT. But I love all the races, and could never pick a favourite (bar pygmies). Experiment, use others and comeback to them when your mood isn't so dark (or maybe goes back to being dark!)
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-29 11:23:40
Yeah I agree about the man marking, I don't usually go into the clinch if I don't have to, but Blodge is such a mighty weapon in all kinds of circumstances. The POMB Witch I've actually found to be a mixed blessing. If I try to protect her, I can rarely make full use of her and it makes my play less flexible. If I do not protect her, she will go out very quickly, taking her 210k TV with her.
Posted by PeteW on 2013-10-29 12:11:13
Dark elves are all about the sidestep. Get as much as you can. I often prioritise it over dodge. It is the best weapon for disrupting opposing attacks as is removes their level of control in their own turn.
Wrestle is great for linoes, unless they get guard first then give them block. Wrestle sidestep is particularly frustrating for opponents.
Ignore assassins.
POMB is nice for a witch, although I made better use of my juggernaut witch. She was great for surfing, and surfing has way better odds for player removal than even the mighty POMB. ;)
Keep at them. Darkies are great. However, and I'm sure I will receive abuse for this, I find it hard to recover from a serious beating. Building a great team up might take 20-30 games and then you can enjoy them for a while, but when some key players die it is often easier to make a new team than recover. But that is me.
Wrestle is great for linoes, unless they get guard first then give them block. Wrestle sidestep is particularly frustrating for opponents.
Ignore assassins.
POMB is nice for a witch, although I made better use of my juggernaut witch. She was great for surfing, and surfing has way better odds for player removal than even the mighty POMB. ;)
Keep at them. Darkies are great. However, and I'm sure I will receive abuse for this, I find it hard to recover from a serious beating. Building a great team up might take 20-30 games and then you can enjoy them for a while, but when some key players die it is often easier to make a new team than recover. But that is me.
Posted by Garion on 2013-10-29 13:05:10
yeah all good advise from Pete. SS is just awesome, spam it :)
Posted by xnoelx on 2013-10-29 13:30:04
As someone who mostly plays caging bashers, DE are my favourite elves to play against, much less difficult to cope with/cover against than any of the others. So I say yeah, stick with it...
Posted by Throweck on 2013-10-29 14:40:45
I have a Dark Elves team in ranked and one in league. So far my one in ranked is a mixture of well established players with stat increases on positionals and the other is very experimental with two assassins. I find the versatile but also have trouble breaking cages with the league team. The ranked team, not so much as two ST4 witches that have leap and I have an AG6/ST4 blitzer.
It's the constant stream of Journeymen I have. But I love playing that team. Maybe one day I will have a full compliment.
I also agree with Pete in regards to assassins, so far they have been pants. I have two in the league team as I just wanted to see. But I have seen and it's not as glorious as I want it to be. Maybe if they survive to get skilled up.
I like SS a lot for delves.
Keep with it, definitely.
It's the constant stream of Journeymen I have. But I love playing that team. Maybe one day I will have a full compliment.
I also agree with Pete in regards to assassins, so far they have been pants. I have two in the league team as I just wanted to see. But I have seen and it's not as glorious as I want it to be. Maybe if they survive to get skilled up.
I like SS a lot for delves.
Keep with it, definitely.
Posted by Throweck on 2013-10-29 14:42:09
Re-reading that post, I miss words out when I quickly.
(See what I did there? :D)
(See what I did there? :D)
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-29 15:02:11
Right, if you want to go cagebreaking, Dark Elves are not your best choice. The ideal DE defence will just steadily slow down the opponent's advance until, frustrated, he tries something risky and exposes the ball (or gives up hope of scoring). It's this very controlled, patient game that appeals to me. Unfortunately it does tend to punish small mistakes, which I frequently make, and you just don't have a Wardancer as plan B in case you lose too many players. ;)
Posted by MisterFurious on 2013-10-29 16:07:09
One problem I had with Dark Elves was the fact that their speed, while above average, still wasn't particularly fast so it wasn't always easy to score touchdowns and avoid getting beat up. And speaking of getting beat up, they usually did. AV 8 is definitely better than AV 7, but it still isn't very good and even with lots of Blodge, stars happen (ask any Amazon coach!) and your team will take a beating. Then there's the expense problem. You'll almost never have any reserves if the game does go sour and your TV will skyrocket quickly. The TV problem is exacerbated by the fact that a large chuck of that TV will be the Dodge skill which is completely negated by Tackle. If you face Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs or just any team that has loaded up on Tackle, a massive amount of your TV is rendered moot, but they still get their inducements. It's like playing against a well built team with a rookie team but you don't get any inducements to help you. Spiraling Expenses becomes an issue, too. Another gripe I have with Dark Elves is that they have two of the least useful posistionals with the Runner and the Assassin. They're one of the very few rosters, hell maybe the only roster, that I look at and think "I don't want to hire any of those guys". They're a solid team, but I think a lot of races are just better. The other Elves and Skaven score better. Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs and others bash better and take a hit better.
Posted by Throweck on 2013-10-29 16:10:31
I know they are not my best choice to go cage-breaking :). I can with the ranked team. But I like the crazy plays. The risk factor type thing. It has a possibility to pay off right? Small chance yes, but when it works it's bloody brilliant!! I think that's why I lose a lot of games. I do the patient thing for a few turns then think 'It might just work hmmmm'. Most of the time it doesn't. It's not the patient games I remember though. It's the ones where I do the crazy stuff that pays off. Not everyone's style, granted.
That said, I like delves as they offer the possibility for different styles. Which I like. It also depends on opposition team, etc. When I say crazy plays I don't mean dodging into 5 TZs to blitz a ST5 CW. Oh wait, I did that yesterday when I played the great BillBraskey! But it was my last ditch effort.
That said, I like delves as they offer the possibility for different styles. Which I like. It also depends on opposition team, etc. When I say crazy plays I don't mean dodging into 5 TZs to blitz a ST5 CW. Oh wait, I did that yesterday when I played the great BillBraskey! But it was my last ditch effort.
Posted by PeteW on 2013-10-29 17:05:20
But dark elves CAN cagebreak, if you play it right.
Try to split their team down the middle so that they aren't caging with a full complement. Slow them and harry them as you suggest, then you have two options.
a) You try to push them over to the side so you can start to surf a few players.
b) You man mark using your dodge SS guys on his players with block+tackle and you stick wrestle+SS on his blacklers. He needs to make blocks to clear your guys and if it goes wrong then you end up with 2 or 3 TZs on his BC. If he tries to dodge away and falls then you are in a great spot.
Also, never buy runners. Worse than assassins.
Also, don't forget that a 5+ dodge with dodge skill is 55.5%. And a 4+ with dodge is 75%. Well worth it if you have a guy with SB or tackle depending onyour target.
There are other tricks to play. Make sure you have a rookie plaer as the only defender in the direction you want him to take, so that if he pows him he can advance a few squares. Double up your better players so that he gains nothing from blitzing them. Try to stay in control of who he hits each turn.
Try to split their team down the middle so that they aren't caging with a full complement. Slow them and harry them as you suggest, then you have two options.
a) You try to push them over to the side so you can start to surf a few players.
b) You man mark using your dodge SS guys on his players with block+tackle and you stick wrestle+SS on his blacklers. He needs to make blocks to clear your guys and if it goes wrong then you end up with 2 or 3 TZs on his BC. If he tries to dodge away and falls then you are in a great spot.
Also, never buy runners. Worse than assassins.
Also, don't forget that a 5+ dodge with dodge skill is 55.5%. And a 4+ with dodge is 75%. Well worth it if you have a guy with SB or tackle depending onyour target.
There are other tricks to play. Make sure you have a rookie plaer as the only defender in the direction you want him to take, so that if he pows him he can advance a few squares. Double up your better players so that he gains nothing from blitzing them. Try to stay in control of who he hits each turn.
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-10-29 18:10:56
Thanks for your comments, Pete, I appreaciate the advice! :)
Posted by bghandras on 2013-10-29 19:20:19
Dark elves need to be expert in surfing. You can remove players and play attrition against orcs too if you use this tool properly.
I agree with a previous statement, that side step is very important. You can make a cage next to the sideline, and then the opponent has a tough choice how to defend. Either risking a breakthrough, or risking a surf.
I would even go so far to try wrestle+side step linos just to fight longbeards, and ignore dodge altogether.
I agree with a previous statement, that side step is very important. You can make a cage next to the sideline, and then the opponent has a tough choice how to defend. Either risking a breakthrough, or risking a surf.
I would even go so far to try wrestle+side step linos just to fight longbeards, and ignore dodge altogether.
Posted by Garion on 2013-10-30 09:22:44
I actually think runners are ok. I don't get the hate they are over priced as dump off is pretty pointless but I like having another ma 7 player on the pitch. Just him and 1 Witch for me is perfect and obviously the 4 blitzers. Any more positionals and you are wasting your av8 advantage. as for the problem facing dwarves etc this is why it is a good idea to go wrestle side step on all linos rather than going blodge. You can try and tie up tackle players with your dodgeless ones.
Posted by bghandras on 2013-10-30 12:57:05
I think too that runners are OK, but not a necessity. Against woodies they are STAR. Against bashers on defense, they are a huge liability.
I used them plenty. Recently I don't have them, because I want to score with linos to develop the whole team. You cant do that with runner so well.
I used them plenty. Recently I don't have them, because I want to score with linos to develop the whole team. You cant do that with runner so well.