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2009-06-19 21:52:15
38 votes, rating 3.6
38 votes, rating 3.6
Have thee no courage?
Ok. If you check my stats, it'll let you know I've played around 40 games, which is a pittance compared to many of the users here. Therefore, obviously my thoughts on the Fumbbl community aren't complete, and are by no means definitive, and I wouldn't presume to think they are. However, they are still valid thoughts, taken in the context of limited experience.
(If that doesn't diffuse any potential flaming, I quit at blogging) :P
So, after 40 games, one thing seems strikingly apparent to me: Nobody plays frail teams. Now I know that as a blanket statement, that isn't true. I'm sure anybody could post any number of links to 200+ tr high elf teams, or whatever. But in the real sense of finding games, it is *very* true. A quick look at my stats shows me that the 'frailest' team to play my Undead has been Norse (not counting the Dark Elves played by my friend).
When I first joined this site, and raged at Skaven dying like Skaven are wont to do, the ubiquitous refrain was 'get over it, everybody dies'. This now to me seems disingenuous, as nobody is *really* willing to risk their pixels. They simply play Chaos, Orcs, or any other team comprised of huge AV and ST players. It seems easy to chant 'get over it' when your team isn't really suffering any casualties, at least not at the rate they could be.
Now, anybody who takes a glance at my teams will see that I have a pile of retired softies, and my only 'legitimate' team is Undead, who themselves are fairly bashy/sturdy, but not overly so. Knowing what I now know of the metagame, I'm rather embarrassed by this. I don't want to be a part of what I perceive to be a problem. I'd love to work on Skaven or Humans, but the problem exists at the lower ratings just as prevalently as it does at higher levels, if not more so. I'm not saying that I never want my Skaven to play orcs, but I certainly want to avoid an Orc/Chaos/Chaos Dwarf rotation ad nausea.
To repeat my preamble: I welcome the thought that I am wrong about this, and I am acutely aware of my lack of true insight into this community. So prove me wrong. Maybe I've had a run of bad luck in gamefinder. I'd also love to see a list of teams played, ranked from most common to most uncommon. Perhaps it would inspire me to play some bottom-ranked teams, just to see what they can do (if anything).
I appreciate your attention, and feedback.
~pubstar
(If that doesn't diffuse any potential flaming, I quit at blogging) :P
So, after 40 games, one thing seems strikingly apparent to me: Nobody plays frail teams. Now I know that as a blanket statement, that isn't true. I'm sure anybody could post any number of links to 200+ tr high elf teams, or whatever. But in the real sense of finding games, it is *very* true. A quick look at my stats shows me that the 'frailest' team to play my Undead has been Norse (not counting the Dark Elves played by my friend).
When I first joined this site, and raged at Skaven dying like Skaven are wont to do, the ubiquitous refrain was 'get over it, everybody dies'. This now to me seems disingenuous, as nobody is *really* willing to risk their pixels. They simply play Chaos, Orcs, or any other team comprised of huge AV and ST players. It seems easy to chant 'get over it' when your team isn't really suffering any casualties, at least not at the rate they could be.
Now, anybody who takes a glance at my teams will see that I have a pile of retired softies, and my only 'legitimate' team is Undead, who themselves are fairly bashy/sturdy, but not overly so. Knowing what I now know of the metagame, I'm rather embarrassed by this. I don't want to be a part of what I perceive to be a problem. I'd love to work on Skaven or Humans, but the problem exists at the lower ratings just as prevalently as it does at higher levels, if not more so. I'm not saying that I never want my Skaven to play orcs, but I certainly want to avoid an Orc/Chaos/Chaos Dwarf rotation ad nausea.
To repeat my preamble: I welcome the thought that I am wrong about this, and I am acutely aware of my lack of true insight into this community. So prove me wrong. Maybe I've had a run of bad luck in gamefinder. I'd also love to see a list of teams played, ranked from most common to most uncommon. Perhaps it would inspire me to play some bottom-ranked teams, just to see what they can do (if anything).
I appreciate your attention, and feedback.
~pubstar
Comments
Posted by BroadAsImLong on 2009-06-19 22:16:17
i can see your point in the majority of teams in ranked on gamefinder are bashy ones, but if you look there are always 'soft' ones, and ones staying alive and playing well.
if you play in league for example i believe there are more soft teams as well.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2009-06-19 22:27:59
There are lots of low AV teams in Ranked that play a lot and do damn well too.
A lot of people ARE scared that their pixels will die even if they tell you they're not. My tip would be this: Don't be one of them. Play the races you enjoy and don't worry about it so much.
A lot of people ARE scared that their pixels will die even if they tell you they're not. My tip would be this: Don't be one of them. Play the races you enjoy and don't worry about it so much.
Posted by DonTomaso on 2009-06-19 22:41:58
Well, the harsh truth is that you are mostly right.
And I'm one of them who avoid overkill teams with my softies. If I get slaughtered by a chatty and fun coach, that is OK, but if he is quiet, boring and so forth, it makes it piss poor.
Guess we'll see some changes of this structure balance in LRB 5 though...
And it is most welcomed.
And I'm one of them who avoid overkill teams with my softies. If I get slaughtered by a chatty and fun coach, that is OK, but if he is quiet, boring and so forth, it makes it piss poor.
Guess we'll see some changes of this structure balance in LRB 5 though...
And it is most welcomed.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2009-06-19 22:42:48
My wood elves will play your undead anytime. Just send me a shout when you see me in chat.
Posted by PainState on 2009-06-19 22:51:02
Well as a advid supporter of Human teams I do agree on some of your points.
1)Once you get over 220 TR gamefinder becomes very lopsided. You usually only find Chaos, DE, CD's, Orcs and the lone Khmeri just hoping beyond hope that someone will play them. IF you are going to wait and see on GF at that level and dont want to face those teams you will be waiting for days in some cases to find a match.
SO either get better playing against those races and take your lumps when they happen or just be frustrated that your choices are extremely limited.
OR
Get to know a lot of other coaches, usually through leagues and such. That way you have a pool of coaches outside of gamefinder that will play you from time to time. Dont think of that as cherry picking but being smart when it comes to finding games. Plus some of my worst beatings in terms of players were in these supposed "friendly" matchs. In the end the other coach has no control over those damn block dice.
In the end if you are playing with Humans you just have to suck it up when it comes to CAS and learn to get around that.
LRB5 will help a little but not that much IMO. The heavy ST and AV teams will still have a lower turnover rate and not take as many CAS BUT the lighter teams will be able to play with out the fear of the niggle striking, although that makes them even easier to CAS.
1)Once you get over 220 TR gamefinder becomes very lopsided. You usually only find Chaos, DE, CD's, Orcs and the lone Khmeri just hoping beyond hope that someone will play them. IF you are going to wait and see on GF at that level and dont want to face those teams you will be waiting for days in some cases to find a match.
SO either get better playing against those races and take your lumps when they happen or just be frustrated that your choices are extremely limited.
OR
Get to know a lot of other coaches, usually through leagues and such. That way you have a pool of coaches outside of gamefinder that will play you from time to time. Dont think of that as cherry picking but being smart when it comes to finding games. Plus some of my worst beatings in terms of players were in these supposed "friendly" matchs. In the end the other coach has no control over those damn block dice.
In the end if you are playing with Humans you just have to suck it up when it comes to CAS and learn to get around that.
LRB5 will help a little but not that much IMO. The heavy ST and AV teams will still have a lower turnover rate and not take as many CAS BUT the lighter teams will be able to play with out the fear of the niggle striking, although that makes them even easier to CAS.
Posted by koga49 on 2009-06-19 23:28:29
interesting post - i looked at the top ten teams on fumbbl after reading it and noticed that only 3 of the top ten were what you would describe as basher teams with the top team being woodies.
think it is possible to play with softer teams and do well on fumbbl and probably be a better coach for it.
i favoured skaven and woodies on TT but fell into the basher coach category after a weeks on fumbbl so i'm probably part of what you describe as the problem now however your post has inspired me to take up the cause of woodies and skaven again :)
think it is possible to play with softer teams and do well on fumbbl and probably be a better coach for it.
i favoured skaven and woodies on TT but fell into the basher coach category after a weeks on fumbbl so i'm probably part of what you describe as the problem now however your post has inspired me to take up the cause of woodies and skaven again :)
Posted by SillySod on 2009-06-19 23:41:00
You are correct, alot of people are only prepared to play durable teams. The imbalance is because there are very few people who only play frail teams.
Best thing is just to accept it as a fact of life and look for the games that you want with the teams that you want as best you can. I hope you try out some of the more challenging teams, they're a blast :)
Best thing is just to accept it as a fact of life and look for the games that you want with the teams that you want as best you can. I hope you try out some of the more challenging teams, they're a blast :)
Posted by arw on 2009-06-20 01:47:05
You are right.
Take pride in playing Underdogs and:
Play Blackbox.
I enjoy bashers a lot yet I got tired of that picking.
I got tired because I was afraid to loose Pix and bored with picking myself.
Ofc I picked "just a little". Like we all do with or without being aware of what we are doing.
Blackbox helped me a lot to enjoy being challenged.
To not pick and like the challenge against a bashier team.
I played only Norse in R for a whole while. My highest TS Team now. They took quite some tough challenges. Winning such a game is so much sweeter than the ripest cherry. I wouldn't know a better win- a better game.
After all those matches their greatest problem remains not to get too attached to that ST5 Blitzer...
Take pride in playing Underdogs and:
Play Blackbox.
I enjoy bashers a lot yet I got tired of that picking.
I got tired because I was afraid to loose Pix and bored with picking myself.
Ofc I picked "just a little". Like we all do with or without being aware of what we are doing.
Blackbox helped me a lot to enjoy being challenged.
To not pick and like the challenge against a bashier team.
I played only Norse in R for a whole while. My highest TS Team now. They took quite some tough challenges. Winning such a game is so much sweeter than the ripest cherry. I wouldn't know a better win- a better game.
After all those matches their greatest problem remains not to get too attached to that ST5 Blitzer...
Posted by orangetruck on 2009-06-20 02:41:52
You are right that most people play with bashers, but that doesn't mean you can't play the frail teams if that's what you want. At least you'll find a game quicker!
I tend to play fast/ag teams because I find them to be more fun. While it's possible to play against bashers frequently, it just won't work to play them all the time because your team will get decimated. This is more the case at a higher TR when tackle and MB are more common. At a lower TR a few blodgers will go a long way. Being down 1-2 guys is not that big a deal when TS is even, and if you save your apo for permanent injuries then your guys will probably soldier on.
At a higher TR I think that your frail team will simply be ground down against the high AV/St guys, and that that's at least partly a function of LRB 4. But with TR under 200 you should be able to keep skaven, humans and elf teams alive and competitive.
I tend to play fast/ag teams because I find them to be more fun. While it's possible to play against bashers frequently, it just won't work to play them all the time because your team will get decimated. This is more the case at a higher TR when tackle and MB are more common. At a lower TR a few blodgers will go a long way. Being down 1-2 guys is not that big a deal when TS is even, and if you save your apo for permanent injuries then your guys will probably soldier on.
At a higher TR I think that your frail team will simply be ground down against the high AV/St guys, and that that's at least partly a function of LRB 4. But with TR under 200 you should be able to keep skaven, humans and elf teams alive and competitive.
Posted by Josito_RIP on 2009-06-20 10:57:16
Blackbox yourself
Posted by CircularLogic on 2009-06-20 11:43:26
Yes, you have understood the metagame of ranked. Play bashy, pick soft.
The reason is, that the actual score of the game counts too little. There are unfortunatelly alot of coaches, that don`t consider winning as their first priority. After all - what does winning give you? +1 on the winning roll, +1 on the FF roll. That`s it. Those coaches have made a mental construct to devalue CR (aided by some cherrypicking *****) and relish not having a high CR, because that makes them manly and strong. So in the end, they will take a loss where they wiped out your team over a win, where they did no damage at all.
On the agile side, why would you play bashers at all? If you win but lose players, then the advantages of winning don`t outweigh the disadvantages.
So as I see it, the metagame is cause by the fact, that a single win in [R] open play has too little impact. Thus I prefer to play tourneys or the box - or pink slip games :D
The reason is, that the actual score of the game counts too little. There are unfortunatelly alot of coaches, that don`t consider winning as their first priority. After all - what does winning give you? +1 on the winning roll, +1 on the FF roll. That`s it. Those coaches have made a mental construct to devalue CR (aided by some cherrypicking *****) and relish not having a high CR, because that makes them manly and strong. So in the end, they will take a loss where they wiped out your team over a win, where they did no damage at all.
On the agile side, why would you play bashers at all? If you win but lose players, then the advantages of winning don`t outweigh the disadvantages.
So as I see it, the metagame is cause by the fact, that a single win in [R] open play has too little impact. Thus I prefer to play tourneys or the box - or pink slip games :D
Posted by Hogshine on 2009-06-20 13:01:04
I voted a 6. What can I say? I appreciate a good wine every now and then. I will make no apologies for this. Sorry.
Posted by Mnemon on 2009-06-20 16:18:18
As has been said before - yes, your perception is true. There's a good sized minority that is not like that, too, however. Despite the blackbox recommendation you might also be interested in E.L.F. if/when it starts up again: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=2079
-Mnemon
-Mnemon
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2009-06-20 22:01:53
Waaaaaa!!!
Woodies, Skaven, Amazons, High and Dark Elves are just as broken as Dwarves, Orcs, Khemri, CD's, Chaos etc... They are just broken in different ways.
If it weren't for their low AV the high AG high speed races would have no weaknesses at all and the Bashers would all be whining about how they cannot win a game. Their low AV brings balance to the game. Learn to either not play bashers or learn how to play against them.
Woodies and Amazons are alot harder to beat with a bashy team than the opposite. Stop going toe to toe and expecting not to get beat down. Remember that if they can't hit you they can't hurt you.
Woodies, Skaven, Amazons, High and Dark Elves are just as broken as Dwarves, Orcs, Khemri, CD's, Chaos etc... They are just broken in different ways.
If it weren't for their low AV the high AG high speed races would have no weaknesses at all and the Bashers would all be whining about how they cannot win a game. Their low AV brings balance to the game. Learn to either not play bashers or learn how to play against them.
Woodies and Amazons are alot harder to beat with a bashy team than the opposite. Stop going toe to toe and expecting not to get beat down. Remember that if they can't hit you they can't hurt you.
Posted by pubstar on 2009-06-20 23:30:46
I feel like some of my comments may have been misconstrued... I am not trying to say that bashy teams are unbalanced, overpowered, or unfair. I am simply saying that it is boring to only play against three or four teams, and that only playing against them with a softer team is rather damaging to the team, more so than playing a balanced schedule. Their damaging effect on softer teams aside, I feel I'd have a similar complaint if all I saw were elves. It'd be easier to keep a team alive, but it still would grow old quickly.
As for the Blackbox, the bold-print disclaimer on the team creation page scared me off... I don't want to get into anything that doesn't work correctly. However, if it's so highly recommended by like-minded players, I think I'll have to give it a try.
Thanks to everybody who replied :)
~pubstar
As for the Blackbox, the bold-print disclaimer on the team creation page scared me off... I don't want to get into anything that doesn't work correctly. However, if it's so highly recommended by like-minded players, I think I'll have to give it a try.
Thanks to everybody who replied :)
~pubstar
Posted by avien on 2009-06-20 23:45:54
Blackbox is highly recommended. While there will be games that are not fair and square, I think it is safe to say that the average game in blackbox is much more fair than in ranked. It also has the advantages that you will neither have to worry about getting cherrypicked or doing it yourself.
I am a soft wus with my AV 7 teams in ranked, but in blackbox it's all for the win. I find I'm not so worried about losing my players in blackbox, since teambuilding for tourneys is no point anyway.
I am a soft wus with my AV 7 teams in ranked, but in blackbox it's all for the win. I find I'm not so worried about losing my players in blackbox, since teambuilding for tourneys is no point anyway.
Posted by orangetruck on 2009-06-22 01:55:27
Sorry, but blackbox won't help you find get away from Orks, Chaos and Dwarves. What's worse is that starting up an AV 7 team in blackbox can be brutal as many teams are frontloaded and have low fan factors. Your opening game can easily be against a team that is 4-5 games old, and you'd better hope that your sole handi isn't bad press. Blackbox is fun and worth playing for lots of reasons, but people don't call it bashbox for nothing.
Posted by Were_M_Eye on 2009-06-22 02:03:04
I think its just a part of BB, people are afraid of loosing pixels, so they choose teams that have high av that bash alot.
My advice is just keep playing games. Try to enjoy the game and realize that all players die eventually.
My advice is just keep playing games. Try to enjoy the game and realize that all players die eventually.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2010-02-01 20:08:03
quote - "This now to me seems disingenuous, as nobody is *really* willing to risk their pixels. They simply play Chaos, Orcs, or any other team comprised of huge AV and ST players. It seems easy to chant 'get over it' when your team isn't really suffering any casualties, at least not at the rate they could be."
Take that, disingenous double standards! Seriously, I ranked it a 6.
Take that, disingenous double standards! Seriously, I ranked it a 6.