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2010-02-08 13:06:10
25 votes, rating 4
25 votes, rating 4
Thoughts on Books (The Living Variety)
It seems to me there's some on-and-off clamor for (or against) Living Rulebook 5. I've read through the thing a few times, and I'm ready to pre-evaluate it (an event I'm sure none of you were greatly anticipating).
The things I love:
New apo. I've always thought the apo should give a team a developmental edge, not an in-game one. The fact that the player leaves the pitch regardless of your attempts to save him pleases me. This gives an advantage to the regenerating teams, which don't seem terribly overpowered compared to the teams sporting apothecaries. Plus it'll be funny when your -av turns out to be a dead guy. Just sayin' ;)
BH ceiling for OFAB: A developmental edge for a team that needs one, without changing their in-game mechanics. Lovely.
New Nurgle: I'm not sure if the new Nurgle team is better than the old one or not. I doubt it will be competitive with the higher tiers of teams. I'm starting to suspect I just love bad teams with cheap linos. Forgive my bias ;)
New Skills: Grab, Juggernaut, Fend, KO Return, etc. Hard to evaluate these skills right now without seeing them in action against the various combinations of new and old skills. I'm in favor of anything that makes team development and skill choices more interesting though, so rah rah, new skills :)
Sneaky Git: Seems fun, and gives your dp goblin/skink/elf a decent normal roll option. Gives you an excuse not to take guard/dodge/something reasonable on a double for non-agility dp linos. I hate it when a dp accidentally develops into a 'real' player ;)
New Niggling Injuries: Very elegant, imo. Still does the job of a niggling injury without ruining the player. In theory, a niggled player will eventually get squished rather than becoming a legend, thus fulfilling the niggle's role in making legends a rarity. But it doesn't ruin the player immediately, since a niggle has no in-game consequences. Makes development a bit easier at the start without sacrificing the difficulty curve at higher TR.
Things I Like Not-so-much:
New Norse: Whaaaat? What is this circus of guys? Every position is just another kind of blitzer. Again, can't evaluate if they'll be any good, but I doubt I'll want to play them. I kinda like the lrb4 Norse. Straight vanilla, how they operate is up to you and your skill choices. Sexy positionals are fun for some, but fun for me is nerding out over skill choices.
Handicaps: It's already an ordeal to set up and play Blood Bowl on a tabletop. I don't really need a horde of extra steps preceding the game, even if it makes the games somewhat more even, being allowed to choose your handicaps. I liked hiring stars whenever you wanted, and I hate the idea of a deck of cards with 200 different results I have to think about. The handicap system in lrb4 isn't perfect, but neither is the new one, and the lrb4 iteration is at least brief.
The Entirely New Races: They just seem off-the-wall bonkers. idk how to defend against some all-leap team. I don't really know what a goblin/skaven team is up to. I don't have any idea what the chaos pact team is even supposed to *be*. I'm not against new races (rah rah, variety), but these just feel slapped-together. I hope I'm wrong.
On The Fence?:
+1 DP: I don't think dp's and fouling get enough attention, so I figured I'd bring up the whole NEW DP debate ;)
Are dp's overpowered in lrb4? *shrug*? It's MB for fouls now, which will still be nice for teams that can't just take MB whenever they want. I honestly can't tell whether or not a dp will be a must-have (or must-have 2-3) at +1.
So... that's it. I can't fathom why you'd read all that, but you did, and I appreciate it. Obviously, I'm very biased with my findings. I'm not saying any of these changes (or any that I didn't want to discuss) are 'good' or 'bad' for the game at large, just which ones I think I'll enjoy, and which ones I think I won't.
I should point out that all these ponderings are based on reading and re-reading the book, not so much on actual game experience. I've played one game using lrb5. DE vs. Nurgle. My only real evaluation is that Dump-off runners are annoying, but a fun wrinkle to try to plan for defensively ;)
Thanks for reading,
~pubstar
The things I love:
New apo. I've always thought the apo should give a team a developmental edge, not an in-game one. The fact that the player leaves the pitch regardless of your attempts to save him pleases me. This gives an advantage to the regenerating teams, which don't seem terribly overpowered compared to the teams sporting apothecaries. Plus it'll be funny when your -av turns out to be a dead guy. Just sayin' ;)
BH ceiling for OFAB: A developmental edge for a team that needs one, without changing their in-game mechanics. Lovely.
New Nurgle: I'm not sure if the new Nurgle team is better than the old one or not. I doubt it will be competitive with the higher tiers of teams. I'm starting to suspect I just love bad teams with cheap linos. Forgive my bias ;)
New Skills: Grab, Juggernaut, Fend, KO Return, etc. Hard to evaluate these skills right now without seeing them in action against the various combinations of new and old skills. I'm in favor of anything that makes team development and skill choices more interesting though, so rah rah, new skills :)
Sneaky Git: Seems fun, and gives your dp goblin/skink/elf a decent normal roll option. Gives you an excuse not to take guard/dodge/something reasonable on a double for non-agility dp linos. I hate it when a dp accidentally develops into a 'real' player ;)
New Niggling Injuries: Very elegant, imo. Still does the job of a niggling injury without ruining the player. In theory, a niggled player will eventually get squished rather than becoming a legend, thus fulfilling the niggle's role in making legends a rarity. But it doesn't ruin the player immediately, since a niggle has no in-game consequences. Makes development a bit easier at the start without sacrificing the difficulty curve at higher TR.
Things I Like Not-so-much:
New Norse: Whaaaat? What is this circus of guys? Every position is just another kind of blitzer. Again, can't evaluate if they'll be any good, but I doubt I'll want to play them. I kinda like the lrb4 Norse. Straight vanilla, how they operate is up to you and your skill choices. Sexy positionals are fun for some, but fun for me is nerding out over skill choices.
Handicaps: It's already an ordeal to set up and play Blood Bowl on a tabletop. I don't really need a horde of extra steps preceding the game, even if it makes the games somewhat more even, being allowed to choose your handicaps. I liked hiring stars whenever you wanted, and I hate the idea of a deck of cards with 200 different results I have to think about. The handicap system in lrb4 isn't perfect, but neither is the new one, and the lrb4 iteration is at least brief.
The Entirely New Races: They just seem off-the-wall bonkers. idk how to defend against some all-leap team. I don't really know what a goblin/skaven team is up to. I don't have any idea what the chaos pact team is even supposed to *be*. I'm not against new races (rah rah, variety), but these just feel slapped-together. I hope I'm wrong.
On The Fence?:
+1 DP: I don't think dp's and fouling get enough attention, so I figured I'd bring up the whole NEW DP debate ;)
Are dp's overpowered in lrb4? *shrug*? It's MB for fouls now, which will still be nice for teams that can't just take MB whenever they want. I honestly can't tell whether or not a dp will be a must-have (or must-have 2-3) at +1.
So... that's it. I can't fathom why you'd read all that, but you did, and I appreciate it. Obviously, I'm very biased with my findings. I'm not saying any of these changes (or any that I didn't want to discuss) are 'good' or 'bad' for the game at large, just which ones I think I'll enjoy, and which ones I think I won't.
I should point out that all these ponderings are based on reading and re-reading the book, not so much on actual game experience. I've played one game using lrb5. DE vs. Nurgle. My only real evaluation is that Dump-off runners are annoying, but a fun wrinkle to try to plan for defensively ;)
Thanks for reading,
~pubstar
Comments
Posted by skejwen on 2010-02-08 14:04:48
You shouldnt forget to mention changes in mutations in lrb5 ;)
Posted by arw on 2010-02-08 15:08:07
NEW DP DEBATE? I am in ^^
DP is a possibility to focus overpowered players.
Even AV9 doesn't help too much.
Every race (but some rarities) can take DP without any need for Strength access or Mutations.
Though it inspires a lot of arguing DP helps balance.
Why else would vanilla races with many weak players love it as much?
Sneaky Git is helping Goblins though. The new skills are nice indeed. However.
If DP seems to brutal make all DP injuries BH: fine!
...well I'd oppose that, too. Nonetheless it would preserve the tactical advantages delivered by a DP.
Then again the eye is gone. What the....?
DP is a possibility to focus overpowered players.
Even AV9 doesn't help too much.
Every race (but some rarities) can take DP without any need for Strength access or Mutations.
Though it inspires a lot of arguing DP helps balance.
Why else would vanilla races with many weak players love it as much?
Sneaky Git is helping Goblins though. The new skills are nice indeed. However.
If DP seems to brutal make all DP injuries BH: fine!
...well I'd oppose that, too. Nonetheless it would preserve the tactical advantages delivered by a DP.
Then again the eye is gone. What the....?
Posted by Arktoris on 2010-02-08 16:10:41
my take on the DP = +1 is the fact that works better with all the new lrb5 rules. The powered down apoth, sneaky git increasing fouls, lack of ref eye, and the compounding effect of niggles. DP being +2 in lrb5 would be overkill.
DP = +2 in lrb4 fits that rule set perfectly. +1 would be too watered down.
I've never played a lrb5 game (I consider ski junkie and christer the BBRC now) and haven't read the rules since 2006 or so. but I do like the idea of new skills. lrb4 biggest problem is the lack of good skill variety. Hence why all teams look the same. (all blitzers get guard/mb/tackle, catchers - blodge SS, blah blah blah, chaos doubles = claw/RSC blah blah blah)
DP = +2 in lrb4 fits that rule set perfectly. +1 would be too watered down.
I've never played a lrb5 game (I consider ski junkie and christer the BBRC now) and haven't read the rules since 2006 or so. but I do like the idea of new skills. lrb4 biggest problem is the lack of good skill variety. Hence why all teams look the same. (all blitzers get guard/mb/tackle, catchers - blodge SS, blah blah blah, chaos doubles = claw/RSC blah blah blah)
Posted by Ganabul on 2010-02-08 16:30:22
Interestin' thoughts. The first rule that really appeals to me are the free linos to make up numbers for understrength teams (games where you're missing one or two or 3 players are just painful if you're not that good) with the option of buying them at the end of the game.
I also like the sound of the new skills, especially wrestle - which I hear makes block a little less obligatory. Yay for more skills, indeed.
I don't like the look of the runners - expensive av7 players whose sole trick relies on them getting hit? Not so cool.
I also like the sound of the new skills, especially wrestle - which I hear makes block a little less obligatory. Yay for more skills, indeed.
I don't like the look of the runners - expensive av7 players whose sole trick relies on them getting hit? Not so cool.
Posted by Zombie69 on 2010-02-08 16:30:32
Here's what i like about LRB5 : .
Here's what i hate about LRB5 : everything.
Here's what i hate about LRB5 : everything.
Posted by SvenS on 2010-02-08 18:11:23
Im rather fond of lrb5 myself though playing mostly here lately has made me forget most of it heh
Posted by Grod on 2010-02-08 18:38:39
A few big things you may have missed (it helps to play LRB 5 a bit, ok I admit it, I ... bought the Cyanide...)
Advantages
* Journeymen to make up numbers when a team can't field 11 players. Great for poncy elves and unlucky orcs alike.
* Removal of traits - more skill options for everyone. Big guys, longbeards etc benefit most as they now have more than a handful of useful skills to take.
* MOAR mutations access! Chaos can take some interesting development paths.
* No aging. Team management relies less on luck.
Disadvantages
* Still not supported by FUMBBL
* The implacable enmity of Zombie69
Advantages
* Journeymen to make up numbers when a team can't field 11 players. Great for poncy elves and unlucky orcs alike.
* Removal of traits - more skill options for everyone. Big guys, longbeards etc benefit most as they now have more than a handful of useful skills to take.
* MOAR mutations access! Chaos can take some interesting development paths.
* No aging. Team management relies less on luck.
Disadvantages
* Still not supported by FUMBBL
* The implacable enmity of Zombie69
Posted by pubstar on 2010-02-08 19:01:36
Thanks for the response, fellas!
Grod-
Journeymen/aging... I'm clearly a fan of making development less of a hassle, but these might go in the 'on the fence' category for me. If it's *too* easy, my awesome teams won't be as impressive ;)
Mutations/traits fall under the 'new skills' bit, as they affect the game similarly in that they do indeed increase the developmental options available to a coach. The pro-variety sentiment seems present in a number of the comments here, which makes me happy :)
I dig Arktoris's evaluation of the +1 DP... I hadn't thought of it that way, I guess I was thinking of it in lrb4 terms, where taking it from +2 to +1 is an obvious nerf. Perhaps the power level will remain roughly the same with the other changes taken into account.
And Ganabul... your thoughts on DE Runners mirror exactly my thoughts on side step. I'm no fan of side step, but people seem to like it plenty, so maybe we're both wrong? Worth considering :)
In any case, I'm always terribly appreciative when folks read what I write. I like thinking about blood bowl almost as much as I like playing it, but what good is being thoughtful if you have no perspective? If nobody responded, I wouldn't know if my thoughts were worthwhile or not ;)
Grod-
Journeymen/aging... I'm clearly a fan of making development less of a hassle, but these might go in the 'on the fence' category for me. If it's *too* easy, my awesome teams won't be as impressive ;)
Mutations/traits fall under the 'new skills' bit, as they affect the game similarly in that they do indeed increase the developmental options available to a coach. The pro-variety sentiment seems present in a number of the comments here, which makes me happy :)
I dig Arktoris's evaluation of the +1 DP... I hadn't thought of it that way, I guess I was thinking of it in lrb4 terms, where taking it from +2 to +1 is an obvious nerf. Perhaps the power level will remain roughly the same with the other changes taken into account.
And Ganabul... your thoughts on DE Runners mirror exactly my thoughts on side step. I'm no fan of side step, but people seem to like it plenty, so maybe we're both wrong? Worth considering :)
In any case, I'm always terribly appreciative when folks read what I write. I like thinking about blood bowl almost as much as I like playing it, but what good is being thoughtful if you have no perspective? If nobody responded, I wouldn't know if my thoughts were worthwhile or not ;)
Posted by Catalyst32 on 2010-02-08 20:46:09
As to the new teams... I find that Slann are like a cross between Skaven, Wood Elves and Amazons in the way they are played. You have to handle the Cathers like you would nerfed Gutter Runners and the Linemen like massively nerfed WarDancer/Amazon Lineman. The Blitzers can be really annoying when developed.
The LEAPing Linemen can't be targeted for elimination the same way 2 Wardancers can be but they aren't the same threat either. Think of the Leap as giving them slighty more deadly mobility like Amazons without the Dodge skill to defend them from your Blocks.
I like to load the team this way
Tackle, Shadowing, Block (3 Linemen)
Block, Strip Ball, Pass Block (2 Linemen)
Guard, Block, Mighty Blow (4 Blitzers already w/ DivingTackle)
Block, SideStep, Diving Tackle (4 Catchers like GR's)
SureHands, Block, Kick Off Return (1 Lineman 4 ballhandling)
It makes Dodging away from your team a nightmare and you have the Cathcers with AG 4 and the Linemen with Leap to cover the ball anywhere it may land. Just play cautious and patient looking for the right moment to break that cage and score on defense. Mark up on weaker teams and double stack your lines of defense against stronger teams.
For Chaos Pact... love this team (though I totally stink with them). Build them anyway you want on the Marauders they can get any skills you want except AGILITY skills. You can build some Blitzers, some Blockers, a Thrower, some utility Mutants, almost anything you want.
Handle the ball with the Dark Elf and the Skaven (Sure Hands, Kick Off Return then handoff to the Elf). Foul with the Goblin or save him for TTM's. Start with the Ogre and Troll... add the Minotaur after both of the other Big Guys have Guard and use him as a Blocker/Blitzer.
For Underground... Why would anyone want to play this team? I think they are worse than Goblins in LRB5 but if you would like a low AV challenge with mutantation access you may enjoy them.
The LEAPing Linemen can't be targeted for elimination the same way 2 Wardancers can be but they aren't the same threat either. Think of the Leap as giving them slighty more deadly mobility like Amazons without the Dodge skill to defend them from your Blocks.
I like to load the team this way
Tackle, Shadowing, Block (3 Linemen)
Block, Strip Ball, Pass Block (2 Linemen)
Guard, Block, Mighty Blow (4 Blitzers already w/ DivingTackle)
Block, SideStep, Diving Tackle (4 Catchers like GR's)
SureHands, Block, Kick Off Return (1 Lineman 4 ballhandling)
It makes Dodging away from your team a nightmare and you have the Cathcers with AG 4 and the Linemen with Leap to cover the ball anywhere it may land. Just play cautious and patient looking for the right moment to break that cage and score on defense. Mark up on weaker teams and double stack your lines of defense against stronger teams.
For Chaos Pact... love this team (though I totally stink with them). Build them anyway you want on the Marauders they can get any skills you want except AGILITY skills. You can build some Blitzers, some Blockers, a Thrower, some utility Mutants, almost anything you want.
Handle the ball with the Dark Elf and the Skaven (Sure Hands, Kick Off Return then handoff to the Elf). Foul with the Goblin or save him for TTM's. Start with the Ogre and Troll... add the Minotaur after both of the other Big Guys have Guard and use him as a Blocker/Blitzer.
For Underground... Why would anyone want to play this team? I think they are worse than Goblins in LRB5 but if you would like a low AV challenge with mutantation access you may enjoy them.
Posted by Ginocoolowski on 2010-02-08 20:58:59
Dump Off might put your av7 runners in trouble. But it's an invaluable tool. Especially on an elf team. It's not the best skill they could have had to start. But any starting roster is better than the current Dark Elf roster.
Oh, and look forward to my super niggled Wight. I'm going to get like 100 niggles on him. :D
Oh, and look forward to my super niggled Wight. I'm going to get like 100 niggles on him. :D
Posted by f_alk on 2010-02-08 21:34:27
Just a few comments, no offense meant!
(1) New Skills: A few things can be evaluated from scratch: Wrestle will happen (for fast teams or when you need more chance to get a player down (guards,TZs). Grab will happen (more fun in positioning players well). Fend will happen (esp for squishy teams w/o high AG or Dodge). Juggernaut will happen (to overrule many of the new skills, plus slightly reduced need for block, nice combo with either frenzy or strip ball).
(2) Handicaps: I don't see the extra steps. Instead of rolling a die, you choose and "pay". You still can buy stars whenever you like, and the cards are purely optional!
(3)"New" Teams (LRB 6): All these teams are actually very old. Slann were available in Ed.2 (don't know about Ed.1), Teams with two or three races mixed were possible there as well. The classic Skaven-Goblin team are the "Underworld Creepers" and in Ed.2 "Star Players" this team is featured together with the other famour teams. Another possibility was a full racial mix of races (chaos, neutral or good). So the Chaos Pact is a way to represent the famous Chaos All Stars (Morg's team)
(1) New Skills: A few things can be evaluated from scratch: Wrestle will happen (for fast teams or when you need more chance to get a player down (guards,TZs). Grab will happen (more fun in positioning players well). Fend will happen (esp for squishy teams w/o high AG or Dodge). Juggernaut will happen (to overrule many of the new skills, plus slightly reduced need for block, nice combo with either frenzy or strip ball).
(2) Handicaps: I don't see the extra steps. Instead of rolling a die, you choose and "pay". You still can buy stars whenever you like, and the cards are purely optional!
(3)"New" Teams (LRB 6): All these teams are actually very old. Slann were available in Ed.2 (don't know about Ed.1), Teams with two or three races mixed were possible there as well. The classic Skaven-Goblin team are the "Underworld Creepers" and in Ed.2 "Star Players" this team is featured together with the other famour teams. Another possibility was a full racial mix of races (chaos, neutral or good). So the Chaos Pact is a way to represent the famous Chaos All Stars (Morg's team)
Posted by pythrr on 2010-02-09 02:45:29
"pre-evaluate"?
What the hell? It's been out for ages....
What the hell? It's been out for ages....
Posted by pubstar on 2010-02-09 11:14:25
haha, a bit silly, yes? Due to an intense lack of local interest, Fumbbl *is* Blood Bowl to me.
Posted by ryanfitz on 2010-02-09 16:19:59
did i miss some change to the LRB5 or is the lrb5 apoth still:
'Immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table... and then you
choose which of the two results to apply.'
so no injuries ending up worse than your 1st roll, since you will have the choice between the two.
'Immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table... and then you
choose which of the two results to apply.'
so no injuries ending up worse than your 1st roll, since you will have the choice between the two.
Posted by f_alk on 2010-02-09 20:29:39
plus: if at least one of your two results is BH, then the player is put in the reserves box.
So, BH is "apo suceeds fully" and everything else is "lesser of two evils".
So, BH is "apo suceeds fully" and everything else is "lesser of two evils".
Posted by Ancre on 2010-02-09 22:00:36
I really like the new skills and I want them :) . Wrestle is so great for cage busting and general annoyance, and fend is a wonderful skill because it frees your player AND stops the other one, thus giving the opponent less manoeuver. (It also have the beneficial value of stopping frensy and piling on stuff if I remember well.) I think it'll do a great skill for linemen like skaven and norse.
I like the new norse (but that's because I can't play lrb4 norse properly, I struggle with any bashy team with strenght 3, and av7 just make my life hell) and the handicaps system (thought that might be just a story of tastes, I guess).
One other thing I really like is the fan factor change. No need to have a lot, so no more rookie teams that are already very popular, it is more fluffy, and you can buy more stuff inthe beginning, like another reroll or another elf blitzer so it makes my life easier :)
I like the new norse (but that's because I can't play lrb4 norse properly, I struggle with any bashy team with strenght 3, and av7 just make my life hell) and the handicaps system (thought that might be just a story of tastes, I guess).
One other thing I really like is the fan factor change. No need to have a lot, so no more rookie teams that are already very popular, it is more fluffy, and you can buy more stuff inthe beginning, like another reroll or another elf blitzer so it makes my life easier :)